Official Luthiers Forum!

Hey all, OK....what is more important...quality chisels or proper sharpening? After watching several different luthiers cut through wood like butter I began to wonder how in the world they do that? I have a set of chisels(likely cheap...not really sure) and some assorted stones for sharpening and I have never been able to get them very sharp. When I cut i feel I am simply just damaging the wood. Assuming that you have a dull chisel to begin with how long should it take to sharpen it properly on a stone? Thanks, Brandon.

Sharpening is more important. You just have to sharpen cheap chisel more often for sure, and they also may not be able to take as keen an edge as higher quality chisels.
I can't tell you how long it should take you to sharpen yours.
It takes just a minute or two to touch up a sharp chisel.

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

Both. Get some good chisels and learn one way to get them really sharp.
Search the archive and you will find a lot of discussion on which brand is
best. I dont want to start that up, I have some LMI chisels, but I'm sure a
lot of brands out there are very good.

I'd suggest going to FWW and doing the two week free trial. They have a
lot of info on sharpening as well as other stuff. I use the scary sharp
sandpaper method. Also get a decent honing guide.

It may take a good hour or more of steady sharpening with a stone to get a good sharp edge if the chisel is real dull now. Once you get your edge, sharpening before & after each time you use it will only take a few moments. One of my favorite chisels sells for about $15.

Sharpening tools properly is one of the hardest woodworking skills to master. I've done all kinds of woodworking over the years and have always, until quite recently, had problems getting and keeping my tools sharp.

What changed? I invested in a Lap Sharp system (www.woodartistry.com). It was expensive, but it was well worth it. Sharpening my plane blades and chisels has never been easier. My tools now have mirror-finish surfaces and cut through wood like a hot knife through butter

It's probably worth spending a bit on a good set of chisels and planes. The higher-end tools (e.g. Lie Nielsen, Lee Valley, and Japan Woodworker) will have better grade steel (that will take a keener edge, just like Jim says above) and be more ergonomic (better balanced, better shaped for your hand, etc.) than the cheaper offerings.

However, that being said, I have several sets of fairly cheap chisels (e.g. Two Cherries, Marples, Stanley) that I'd collected over the years. They were all well abused and looking the worse for wear. When I got my Lap Sharp system, they cleaned up nicely and now that they are sharpened properly, all perform admirably.

HTH,

Dave F.

www.cambrianguitars.com

 

well, what has already been said. i dont own a set of good chisels. i have one hirsch crank neck chisel and a set of stanley bench chisels. the stanleys could not have cost more than 20 bucks. i would recommend paring chisels if you are buying though. i was just sharpening earlier tonight and could not believe the results i was getting using the scary sharp method. and youd be surprised how a leather strop and some jewelers rouge will take it to the next level. i was shaving hair from my arm in no time. fine shavings in end grain? no prob! im not sure what kind of stones you have, but pretty much the only method ive used is scary sharp. i just looked for a while in the archives to find the video i was thinking of, but to no avail. anyways, theres a ton of info on sharpening in the archives. if i were you, id get some 1/4" plate glass, some sandpaper and a honing guide and go to town.

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sweat the small stuff.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=7428

  this thread has explainations of various sharpening styles... Jody

 

 also check out this video......

http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/S killsAndTechniquesArticle.aspx?id=28819

Sharpening is to chisels what gas is to a car - without either you will not get to far.

A cheap chisel will be fine for a while if properly sharpened but an expensive chisel is just a paint stir stick if dull......

So learn to sharpen and many of us struggle a bit with this for a while - I did.  But when you get it you will be able to pop hairs off the back of your hands with a well sharpened chisel be it an inexpensive one or an expensive one.

There are two basic manual methods:  Water stones which is what I use and I have a 1000, and a 4000/8000 combo stone all from Norton.  Or the scary sharp method that uses sand paper on a piece of glass.  Both methods can give you beautiful results and both methods permit you to use a rolling guide too if you wish to.  I now find the guides a hassle and and just carefully hold the chisels.

You will need to sharpen plane blades too so it's best that you learn how to accomplish this and I am sure that some of the guys here would be happy to help.

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Ann Arbor Guitars

What Hesh said...but

I also used the same norton water stones that he is talking about, and at our woodworking school we advocate the use of Shapton Japanese Ceramic water stones, and they do put on the finest edge I have ever seen...but you have to spend a lot of time sharpening to get them there...keeping them there is not as hard...

that being said, i bought the Work Sharp 3000 which is an automated version of the sandpaper/glass method.  The Shapton stone set is around $600 for everything you would need...The WS3000 was $199 - When I got it I sharpened every chisel I had, plus my buddy's chisels, to a mirror polish in about an hour...

cheaper, faster, as good a result as my norton stones...

nuf sed...

Mitch

I learned to sharpen on stones first, but invested in a Veritas power sharpening system for convenience...
If your buying quality Japanese stones and grinding/honing wheels, low speed grinder, diamond paste, etc its probably comparable in setup costs to a power sharpening system really
(however you are locked into buying replacement disks with a power system mind you)
Well the other day I changed an angle on a plane blade and sharpened it to freakishly sharp in about 7 minutes with this setup - It would have taken me all afternoon on stones,,,
This discussion has been had before however - once a blade is lapped and has its angle properly set....(hog work) maintenance sharpening on stones (or scary sharp)is really no big deal..
Cheers
Charlie          ;   

I had been using the Veritas honing jig, complete with the scary sharp papers and was having beautiful results and edges on my chisels that just didnt seem to want to go dull.

Then my best friend (a hobby builder) came up with a work sharp WS2000 sharpening machine and brought it over to my shop. Well, my chisels needed sharpening and I let him run then through his machine. He has one wheel that has some micro grit paper that gives a polished face for the guitar.

At first the chisels wouldnt even cut spruce. We moved the point of grinding from the left to the right and sharpened them again. This time they cut really good! The WS2000 cut a different angle of cut on my chisels. It looked like it may have only been a degree or two, but I didnt think it wouold have made much difference. It did.

I have gone back to the Veritas system with the flat plate and the scary sharp papers.

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Reguards,

Ken H

Another scary sharp man here. I'm sold on the "system"... I have some plexiglass pieces with papers stuck to them. But the best advice I could give is that once sharp, don't let them go dull! Don't work until you feel the edge going dull; if you did, it's to late. I strop it using 1200 or 1500 on the plexi(or real glass) at least twice while carving braces, for example. It becomes a habit. Strop lightly before commencing, and during. Just do it.

Maintaining my chisel's edge like this, I only sharpen it maybe once a yea or 18 months, or if I've hit something(sand, metal, etc...)

The difference between a good chisel and a POS chisel is the steel, of course, and poor steel won't take an edge, much less hold it. It really changed my view once I got a good chisel. The same technique to sharpen never gets the same edge on my cheapies, not even close, which are relegated to scraping duty, mostly. Steel has grain; the finer the grain, the finer the edge, and we're talking at a degree we can't see.

Expensive? No way! You only need ONE good chisel. I have a long, beveled edge 1/2" chisel which lives in my hand. I do 98% of my work with this one chisel. The odd job that asks for a wider or narrower chisel is fine for the cheapies. And by using just one chisel, it will become an extension of your being, and you and it will become one. Sounds quirky, but it really can be so.

I could not agree with Mario more on all counts.

I have an LMI 18mm that just fits my hand very well and holds an edge for a long time.  Just as important it just feels right to me and I do have other chisels too, some pretty high quality, but I like this one.

So I use it all the time and in doing so I am probably a better carver with it.

It was also the first chisel that after sharpening I was able to experience a chisel sharp enough to pop the hairs off the back of my hand.  I think this speaks well to the steel used and what Mario said about good steel being able to be sharpened sharper then lesser steel.

I was stropping it several times a session on my 8000 stone, dry, until JJ heard this and took pity on me.  So JJ sent me a surprise that he made for me to strop on and I am looking forward to using it.  And yes JJ bro I WILL take the tape of the dry side before using......

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Ann Arbor Guitars

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I've just been called a beginner....

I've been using the same 6" discs glued to my plate for at least 2-3 years. Several lifetimes, and still wouldn't pay for one stone. Hell, wouldn't even pay for the postage for that stone from a mail order place. And these never need dressing....

But whadoeyeno. I'm just a phargling beginner.

Why, I've never...

[QUOTE=grumpy]I'm just a phargling beginner.Why, I've never...[/QUOTE]

But your work is so good already...just imagine how great you'll be with a little experience under your belt!

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

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Hmmm...interesting theory, Todd. And all along I thought it might be the annual January/February bout of cabin fever.

Then again...going commando at that latitude might not have the same effect as in Maryland. At -40* there's not much left to swing in the nether regions. I believe the non-medical term is "turtling" and women seem to find this amusing.

On chisels...I have more than a few (10) but find that I always seem the use the same 4 or 5.
...a 1/2" Japanese chisel...very hard, brittle steel but keeps an edge for a long time. My "go-to" chisel.
...1/4" Sears chisel...POS steel that requires frequent touchups but feels good in my hand
...3/4" LMI chisel...medium steel
...1/8" LMI chisel...rosettes, bindings, etc.
...1/2" Sorby mortising chisel...medium steel

I disagree that the SS method is inferior in any way to the various machines. I took 3 of my chisels to Woodcraft where they honed them on the Tormek system. Afterwards, I pulled out a few that I had done at home and asked him to compare the results on their magnifier as well as in use. We both agreed that there was essentially no difference. I plan to remain in the SS camp and have no desire to either go to stones nor machines.

There is one advantage to the machines and that is when an edge becomes damaged and requires establishing a new bevel. In that case, grinding away with 120 & 220 grit takes a lot longer and uses up a lot of paper. The machines would be less tedious.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

What was this thead about, again?   

I enjoy having several types and sizes around. Even if I could probably get away with a couple I wouldn’t want to; I like’em too much! I pick up old ones at antique stores and flea markets and such, and some of my best ones are old Swedish carbon steel ones which used to be the most common kind up here.   Some are not so great, but when they’re good they’re really good.

I probably use the use ?” most often, so I have quite a few of them so hopefully at least one will be super sharp at all times. I admit to sometimes letting them get dull, but then I will put many of them back in shape at the same time, quickly. I use a belt sander to grind away nicks and restore flea market specials, and then I use a simple honing guide on some diamond stones and finish up on a Japanese water stone. Once I finish fixing up my shop I will have a dedicated sharpening bench always ready to go. My new year’s resolution is to never let my edge tools get dull (not really…)!

As for ‘the best’ chisel around I have high hopes for the new set of Blue Spruce I ordered a while back. I got a notice that they are about ready to ship today, hooray! My combined birthday / Christmas gift to me…

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

What was this thread about, again? 

I think we were discussing briefs VS boxers.

I'm a boxer guy.... Or long john's, depending on the weather.

[QUOTE=ToddStock]   I agree that the edge from a Tormek looks great under a hand scope, but it does not last as long in use. [/QUOTE]

I never thought of the longevity issue. Does hollow grinding have anything to do with that, Todd? My SS produced bevels are dead flat whereas I noticed that the bevels from the Tormek have a slight radius.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Alrighty, i think i'm more confused now then when i started....just kidding.
anyways i got a bunch of stones with some woodworking equipment i
bought recently. i'll give that a shot first now that i watched the video on
how to do it correctly. thanks for all the info.

yep!! you a beginner all right...The brefier the better

JJ - the longevity of the edge is a function of the type of steel used, its temper and carbon content which alter the hardness of the steel.  The harder the steel the longer it will stay sharp.  The downside is that harder steel is more brittle and will chip or break more easily.

But, the broken pieces will be sharp!

I think I remember that correctly from metallurgy 20 years ago.....

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Steve Walden
Aspiring Builder,
Bartlesville, OK