Official Luthiers Forum!
http://luthiersforum.com/forum/

braces into linings-again!!!
http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=18769		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Mike Collins [ Fri Sep 12, 2008 5:10 pm ]
Post subject:  braces into linings-again!!!
I know we've all voiced our opinion on this subject before.
I just had a Seagull cedar top guitar that someone dropped a book on-right over the sound hole!
The strings were off the guitar -the owner was changing them and reading War & Peace !
But the inpact caused the top to crack as it gave way to the weight
and the X brace let loose on the treble side!

NOW- the bass side X was tucked into the lining-Never came unglued!!!
The treble side the X ended 1/4" from the lining and that brace let go big time!!!!!
The book hit dead on center according to the owner!!!!!

Just another example why I tuck all my X's and # 1's on steels, and #1 #2 on classicals
and all my back braces in to the linings!
You do need to cut a canyon in the linings-just tuck in a 1/16' tall brace & this will not be a future problem with your guitars!

Mike [:Y:]
Author:  rjeffery [ Fri Sep 12, 2008 6:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: braces into linings-again!!!
Gee! what a photo would tell us (hint)!
Author:  ncovey [ Fri Sep 12, 2008 9:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: braces into linings-again!!!
I agree Mike, It just makes more sense to me to take the little extra time and tuck them.
IMO it reduces the chances of any top cracks forming when the brace is complete to the side. Also helps me to set the top exactly in the same spot after glue-up, by falling into the lining seats. Just my opinion though.
--nehemiah
Author:  LanceK [ Fri Sep 12, 2008 9:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: braces into linings-again!!!
I certainly don't want to get in to a debate on whether or not you should or shouldn't, to each his own,
but its important to also consider that some builders do not tuck there lower braces to allow the
plate to vibrate more freely. Its not only a structural issue.
Author:  Billy T [ Sat Sep 13, 2008 4:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: braces into linings-again!!!
For me, being much, much, more of a player than a builder, I don't really care if the guitar is more prone to cracks. If it sounds better I want it!

Taylors perimeter relief is a good example of what Lance brings up. Is the top as strong.... probably not. But as reported it really opens up the sound and I'm pretty sure it's not as weakening as it looks because the soundboard stress is spread over a much bigger area as it's about the periphery.

Luthiers want strong guitars for less repairs and dependability, players want better sound, this is not always mutually exclusive.
Author:  Hesh [ Sat Sep 13, 2008 5:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: braces into linings-again!!!
Well this settles it once and for all for me - Tolstoy was a banjo player.......
Author:  Mike Collins [ Sat Sep 13, 2008 6:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: braces into linings-again!!!
I tuck both ends of an X -
If you've ever had to reach in & reglue a lower bout X where it meets the lining as i have on many guitars it is very hard to reach .

I do tuck finger braces etc..

Mike
Author:  Kent Chasson [ Sat Sep 13, 2008 1:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: braces into linings-again!!!
Bass side tucked but not the treble? That's a new one. Was the treble side tapered to nothing like it was meant to be untucked or did they just miss by a mile?

I don't want to start an argument either...well, maybe just a little ;)....but,

A) I'm not sure "A guitar that can withstand War and Peace" is a tagline I want on my advertsing.

B) Although yours is certainly a reasonable conclusion based on the accident, it's not the only possible conclusion. Maybe the brace would have split otherwise? Maybe the book would have punched a hole in the top had the brace not given way? Not likely but you never know.

C) Would it have held up fine if it were merely Anna Karenin?
Author:  Mike Collins [ Sat Sep 13, 2008 3:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: braces into linings-again!!!
The factory workers tucked the bass upperbout X-it stayed in place.
The treble side X ended before the lining-it came loose!

Now-I've repaired many guitars-factory and hand makers over the last 30+ plus years-The ones with the braces feathered(I went to Charles school in 1977)let go with just the slightest pressure or trauma!
So let's see-no tuck-braces come loose easily-tuck they stay in place-NO repair needed.
NOW -for tone-taper the brace more that for a non -tucked one!!
The brace only needs to be .032 (1/16" high)
I taper mine (for steels) from the X center to the sides and the tone & volume is great!!!
I scalloped for years & was not satified with the tone or volume.

Drop any book onto your guitar top if you think it will hold up!!!!
Mike
Author:  Kent Chasson [ Sat Sep 13, 2008 4:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: braces into linings-again!!!
Mike Collins wrote:
The factory workers tucked the bass upperbout X-it stayed in place.
The treble side X ended before the lining-it came loose!

Mike


Yes but there were two points to my question. One was whether the brace was meant to be untucked and tapered to zero. If left at a more typical 1/8" at the end and untucked, it would certainly pop more easily. But I was also asking because, if it was meant to be tucked and it missed that badly, it was obviosly so poorly built that I don't think you can make any conclusions about the technique based on that instrument.

I've built a bunch both ways and I've literally beat the crap out of several test bodies to try to get stuff to fail and I just haven't found untucked braces to be a problem. In fact, I just went down and smacked my latest test body about 20 times with the palm of my hand, all over the top, right over several untucked brace ends....hard enough that I thought I might crack the top....and nothing happened.

No disrespect intended, but "The ones with the braces feathered(I went to Charles school in 1977)let go with just the slightest pressure or trauma!" is far from true in my experience on my guitars.

I'm not doubting that you have seen what you say, I just have seen something very different.
Author:  Brad T [ Sat Sep 13, 2008 4:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: braces into linings-again!!!
The lesson I see here is Dont be droppin' big friggin' books on your guitar!
Author:  Mike Collins [ Sat Sep 13, 2008 5:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: braces into linings-again!!!
[quot
Brad T wrote:
The lesson I see here is Dont be droppin' big friggin' books on your guitar!


That's to bad !

I have guitars all over the world and I think it's important that they know their guitar is safe from even minor bumps.
I traveled many years as a working musician and i know the importance of not needing a repair done while touring.

Locked in braces allow the top & back to be thinned a bit more on the edges!Even in farther !!!
This thinning helps with volume and tone!! [:Y:]

So find what works for you !

Mike
Author:  Brad T [ Sat Sep 13, 2008 9:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: braces into linings-again!!!
Mike Collins wrote:
[quot
Brad T wrote:
The lesson I see here is Dont be droppin' big friggin' books on your guitar!


That's to bad !

I have guitars all over the world and I think it's important that they know their guitar is safe from even minor bumps.
I traveled many years as a working musician and i know the importance of not needing a repair done while touring.

Locked in braces allow the top & back to be thinned a bit more on the edges!Even in farther !!!
This thinning helps with volume and tone!! [:Y:]

So find what works for you !

Mike


Minor bumps, yeah (I tuck my braces too!!) but dropping an encyclopedia-esque object on a delicate instrument ain't exactly minor!!!! I had a guy drop his out of the case because he failed to latch the lid before he picked it up. It hit the floor and some other stuff on the way down, skinned up the top, but it held together (tucked braces).

I do see your point, and can see how theoretically it makes sense with regard to structure. 8-)
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Sun Sep 14, 2008 12:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: braces into linings-again!!!
Mike, .032" is not 1/16". But let's get to the important stuff: you said this guy was reading War and Peace; was that the book he dropped on his guitar? At what time of day did he do this? What had he been imbibing? Soft or hard bound? How much had he read at the time? Was a bookmark in place? Has he continued reading? finished the book?
Author:  Mike Collins [ Sun Sep 14, 2008 6:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: braces into linings-again!!!
Opps!!!! oops_sign
I meant .8 mm
I use metric all the time and now get confused when dealing in inches!!!!

I do not think he finished the book !!!!

While in my shop he bought a classical guitar!!!!!!
One of mine!!!!
bliss

Mike
Author:  Brad T [ Sun Sep 14, 2008 6:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: braces into linings-again!!!
Mike Collins wrote:

While in my shop he bought a classical guitar!!!!!!
One of mine!!!!
bliss

Mike



That's awesome! Did you hide all the books while he gave it a test drive??
:shock:
Author:  Colin S [ Sun Sep 14, 2008 6:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: braces into linings-again!!!
Can I put a point of view? No such thing as an accident.

What do I mean by that? Well, all of these 'accidents' are down to human action or inaction they all have a direct cause.

On analysis, accidents are usually down to negligence, "the guitar just fell over when it was leaning against the wall", "I dropped War and Peace on it", (it must always be a Russian novel). Lack of forethought, leaning it against the wall in the first place, or not putting it back in it's case when reading a Russian novel in its vacinity etc. Any damage caused is not accidental, it can be traced directly to someone's action or lack of.

Take a guitar out of its case, play it, put it back in its case.

So, if a customer comes back with 'accidental' damage, repair it, take his money with relish, he shouldn't have been so careless and lacking in respect for the instrument to have an 'accident' in the first place.

Me I tuck above the waist and feather below, usually. ;)

Colin
Author:  L. Presnall [ Sun Sep 14, 2008 8:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: braces into linings-again!!!
Brad T wrote:
The lesson I see here is Dont be droppin' big friggin' books on your guitar!


I thought books were our friends! [xx(]
Author:  L. Presnall [ Sun Sep 14, 2008 8:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: braces into linings-again!!!
Colin S wrote:

Me I tuck above the waist and feather below, usually. ;)

Colin


Colin, I try not to judge...what a guy does above and below his waist is HIS bidness! :D

Seriously though, I go around looking for a reason to not tuck braces lately, but haven't found peace with it...I just need to learn to cut the pockets and fit the braces as clean as Lance! [:Y:]
Author:  Colin S [ Sun Sep 14, 2008 8:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: braces into linings-again!!!
L. Presnall wrote:
Colin S wrote:

Me I tuck above the waist and feather below, usually. ;)

Colin


Colin, I try not to judge...what a guy does above and below his waist is HIS bidness! :D

Seriously though, I go around looking for a reason to not tuck braces lately, but haven't found peace with it...I just need to learn to cut the pockets and fit the braces as clean as Lance! [:Y:]


Leave the brace oversize, cut the pocket, then fit the brace to the pocket, much easier than trying to fit the pocket to the brace. I always cut the pockets and fit the braces on top and back before gluing either plate to the rims, much easier to check the fit.

Colin
Author:  Mike Mahar [ Sun Sep 14, 2008 9:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: braces into linings-again!!!
From my perspective, some really great guitars have tucked braces. Structurally, tucked braces are more robust. Therefore, if you can make a great sounding guitar with tucked braces, you should.

As for "there is no such thing as an accident", recently a person was struck by a meteor. It's hard to imagine what you could do to prevent that. (Would it be "struck by a meteor" or "struck by a meteorite"? The meteor would become a meteorite at the moment it struck him.) :)

I think that I'm a bit more willing to accept a bit more carelessness than Colin. Ideally, you do what Colin say and put the guitar back in the case when you are not actually playing it. That's what I'd do if I had a $10,000 guitar. But I bring three or four instruments up on stage and leave them on the stand during the break.
Author:  Mike Collins [ Sun Sep 14, 2008 1:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: braces into linings-again!!!
making "Flamenco" guitars "Flammers"(as i call them)
You quickly learn to tuck the structural braces!
Those guys can loosen a brace with just one good Golpe !

Especially with cedar!!!

Mike
Author:  Brad T [ Sun Sep 14, 2008 2:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: braces into linings-again!!!
Mike Mahar wrote:

As for "there is no such thing as an accident", recently a person was struck by a meteor. It's hard to imagine what you could do to prevent that. (Would it be "struck by a meteor" or "struck by a meteorite"? The meteor would become a meteorite at the moment it struck him.)


I would actually be a meteoroid....... :shock: but the guy that got hit probably wouldn't care if you called it a hemorrhoid..........
Author:  Kim [ Sun Sep 14, 2008 4:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: braces into linings-again!!!
Brad T wrote:
Mike Mahar wrote:

As for "there is no such thing as an accident", recently a person was struck by a meteor. It's hard to imagine what you could do to prevent that. (Would it be "struck by a meteor" or "struck by a meteorite"? The meteor would become a meteorite at the moment it struck him.)


I would actually be a meteoroid....... :shock: but the guy that got hit probably wouldn't care if you called it a hemorrhoid..........


What a tragic headline "Brace Tucking Man Struck Down by Giant Flaming Hemorrhoid from Outer Space" :o


Cheers

Kim
Page 1 of 1 All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/