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| Shellac... http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=19116 |
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| Author: | J Jones [ Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Shellac... |
should i use Blonde dewaxed, or Lemon? does it matter? Also, on a different topic, this bit is to help me win an arguement with my father so bear with me..., how useful is a scraper? could it be replaced with sand paper? thanks for humouring me ![[:Y:]](./images/smilies/smiley20.gif "Thumbs Up") Jonny |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shellac... |
If you are French polishing, if you spirit-off after every body session after the first two there should be no need for an abrasive paper to ever touch the finish. That said this is an acquired skill. Your first few times out the gate you will not likely have the skills to build a true level film but none the less the more you properly spirit-off after body sessions the leveler you will build the film. I would not suggest you never,never,never touch the film with a scraper. The chance for a gouge is great!!!! If you need to level then use 320p and up if you must. Lemon color shellac will impart a faint yellow tent. Extra blond is nearer to tentless |
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| Author: | J Jones [ Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shellac... |
sorry, i didn't make it clear, they are two different questions, one about what kind of shellac should be used, and the other is as it is 
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shellac... |
I don't know anything about lemon, but any dewaxed shellac, blond, medium blond, amber, brown, orange, etc., but only dewaxed. A cabinet scraper is very useful in guitar building. Yes, it can be replaced with sandpaper at about 100+ times the cost. A pack of 3 scrapers costs about $15.00, about the same as three small packs of paper in several grits. The paper will last, maybe a year or less, the scraper will last 20+ years. However, having both is the preferred way to solve the problem. They both have their strong points and weak points. I can only assume you do not mean using a scraper relative to shellac. You said it was on a different subject. |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shellac... |
I think I am pretty clear though I may havve been editing my reply as you responed. What tint of shellac is up to what tint you want your finish to be. Blond is closer to tintless than lemon. A scraper will not smoothly cut shellac. Now if the question on the scraper is in regards to raw wood. a scraper can if properly honed and hooked produce a smother surface than paper. even fine paper leaves micro scratches. A scraper planes the surface just as block plane does. And Waddy is correct you want to use a de-waxed shellac. It does not mater if you seperate the wax after mixing or you use a de-waxed flakes to make your cut or use a 100% wax free pre-mix. Wax will prevent adhesion and in French polishing proper amalgamation. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shellac... |
Dueling answers, Michael! 
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shellac... |
na ---Just reinforcment
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| Author: | J Jones [ Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shellac... |
thanks for the entertainment guys sorry, i was replying while u were editing! your input has been noted, lucky i asked cause the only dewaxed shellac was not the one i was going to get, and ill be honest i have no idea how to separate the wax also i think i convinced my dad that a scraper will be a usefull tool.
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shellac... |
J Jones wrote: thanks for the entertainment guys sorry, i was replying while u were editing! your input has been noted, lucky i asked cause the only dewaxed shellac was not the one i was going to get, and ill be honest i have no idea how to separate the wax also i think i convinced my dad that a scraper will be a usefull tool.It is simpler to buy de-waxed flakes but the process of de-waxing is not difficult. When you make up your cut using flakes that are not wax free the alcohol will cause the shellac resin and wax to separate in solution. Allowed to settle the wax particles will group together as will the shellac resins. Because they have different viscosity it is fairly simple to scrape off the wax. Sort of like separating the heavy cream form unprocessed whole milk. But I bet not many out there have ever done that these days. I guess I am showing my roots and age |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shellac... |
Showing your roots..........? I didn't know you dyed your hair! 
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| Author: | Mike Collins [ Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shellac... |
Back before Shellac was de-waxed -which was mostly for the medical trade -the shellac provided it's own lubrication for a polish!! Now with de-waxed we have to add it!! Go figure!!!!! Mike 
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shellac... |
Mike Collins wrote: Back before Shellac was de-waxed -which was mostly for the medical trade -the shellac provided it's own lubrication for a polish!! Now with de-waxed we have to add it!! Go figure!!!!! Mike Once again what goes around comes around or to quote Sir Billy Preston "Here we go round in circles" That laugh out of the way most historic 18th and 19th century FP recipes I have read did refer to skimming or de-waxing the solution. So the de-waxing thing been around a while |
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| Author: | Mike Collins [ Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shellac... |
Well the Spanish & most other makers of the 18th & 19th century did NOT dewax thier Shellac!! Maybe furniture makers did! Also if you read my reply -dewaxing was needed for the medical trade so as to make the shellac more pure !! Mike |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shellac... |
Mike Collins wrote: Well the Spanish & most other makers of the 18th & 19th century did NOT dewax thier Shellac!! Maybe furniture makers did! Also if you read my reply -dewaxing was needed for the medical trade so as to make the shellac more pure !! Mike Mike I neither gripping nor doubting as I have read as many recipies that did not dewax as did i was just mentioning that it is not a new concept. and it was really not directed at you at all. but just a general statement. Just want you to know. |
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| Author: | Mike Collins [ Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shellac... |
I'm sorry I sounded off like that! I never mean to come across like that!  No excuses ! Mike Hey mike did you really like the fish glue?? Did ya order some? Mike |
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| Author: | Eric Mathre [ Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shellac... |
So, speaking of dewaxing shellac, I have to confess to being a "shellacophile". I purchased a shellac sample kit from Ron Fernandez last year and treasure the interesting variety of shellac flakes, seedlac, and buttonlac he has put together. See: [url][/url]http://www.fernandezmusic.com/Shellacsampler.html[url][/url] for details. For my last build, I used Kusmi Buttonlac. I love the amber color. I read a lot about various folks' de-waxing techniques. None of the various filtering techniques I read about worked well at all. I ended up just leaving it sit for a few weeks and then trying to pour off the shellac from the waxy mass that settled towards the bottom. I found this to be quite wasteful. I think I could only get about 30-40% of the shellac out before the wax got "stirred up" and mixed back in. How do you de-wax, Michael? Fun fact: the Chinese expression for shellac literally means "insect paint". Eric |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shellac... |
Just callin' it like it is! |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shellac... |
emathre wrote: So, speaking of dewaxing shellac, I have to confess to being a "shellacophile". I purchased a shellac sample kit from Ron Fernandez last year and treasure the interesting variety of shellac flakes, seedlac, and buttonlac he has put together. See: [url][/url]http://www.fernandezmusic.com/Shellacsampler.html[url][/url] for details. For my last build, I used Kusmi Buttonlac. I love the amber color. I read a lot about various folks' de-waxing techniques. None of the various filtering techniques I read about worked well at all. I ended up just leaving it sit for a few weeks and then trying to pour off the shellac from the waxy mass that settled towards the bottom. I found this to be quite wasteful. I think I could only get about 30-40% of the shellac out before the wax got "stirred up" and mixed back in. How do you de-wax, Michael? Fun fact: the Chinese expression for shellac literally means "insect paint". Eric Truth is I avoid it where I can buy using de-waxed flakes but I use a lot of Liberon’s pre mix these days and still use Zinsser’s Seal Coat if I want a light amber tint. But I have had best success when dealing with buttonlac or flakes that were not de-waxed by using a basting syringe to draw the shellac off. This will waist the least by you will still loose about 5%. Because as you get lower and closer to the wax the draw will start disturbing the wax |
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| Author: | Chris Paulick [ Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shellac... |
Have you ever tried syphoning it off with a piece of 1/4" aquarium tubing? |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shellac... |
Chris Paulick wrote: Have you ever tried syphoning it off with a piece of 1/4" aquarium tubing? I refuse to answer that because my toung is still shellaced to the top of my mouth   you still have the same proble as yoou get close to the wax. the wax does not congel into a single mass but is a mass of very loosly bound clusters |
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| Author: | Chris Paulick [ Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shellac... |
 
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| Author: | J Jones [ Wed Oct 08, 2008 4:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shellac... |
MichaelP wrote: Chris Paulick wrote: Have you ever tried syphoning it off with a piece of 1/4" aquarium tubing? I refuse to answer that because my toung is still shellaced to the top of my mouth This reminds me. What kind of alcohol should i use. im confused as to the difference between denatured alcohol, and methylated spirits? also does the colour of the alcohol make any difference, being as it should all evaporate i would assume not, but i fear some precipate may be formed? sorry for the silly questions thanks Jonny |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Oct 08, 2008 4:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shellac... |
J Jones wrote: MichaelP wrote: Chris Paulick wrote: Have you ever tried syphoning it off with a piece of 1/4" aquarium tubing? I refuse to answer that because my toung is still shellaced to the top of my mouth This reminds me. What kind of alcohol should i use. im confused as to the difference between denatured alcohol, and methylated spirits? also does the colour of the alcohol make any difference, being as it should all evaporate i would assume not, but i fear some precipate may be formed? sorry for the silly questions thanks Jonny DA works fine but is poisonous, the best is pure grain alcohol Funny story is DA came about to prevent finishers for getting drunk by drinking low grade grain alcohol and to stop bootleggers from being able to claim their goods was finish solvent. So the government has the insightful foresight to add poison to grain alcohol. Now if you drink or handle DA with out proper protection you don’t get drunk you get dead. Brilliant simply brilliant idea. Dont you think? ![[headinwall]](./images/smilies/headbangwalluf8.gif "Mad") 
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| Author: | J Jones [ Wed Oct 08, 2008 4:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shellac... |
gdgd, where would i get pure grain alcohol? if i cant find it guess ill have to use meths and wear gloves . btw, do the age restrictions to buying drinking alcohol also apply in this instance?
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Oct 08, 2008 4:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shellac... |
J Jones wrote: gdgd, where would i get pure grain alcohol? if i cant find it guess ill have to use meths and wear gloves . btw, do the age restrictions to buying drinking alcohol also apply in this instance?Liquor store sold as everclear. DA can be bought by 18 and over everclear is liquor so drinking age applies |
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