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Clear Pickguards... Kinnaird's Bane!
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Author:  Steve Kinnaird [ Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Clear Pickguards... Kinnaird's Bane!
Does anyone have a solution to my dilemma?
I've been wrestling w/ clear pickguard material as long as it's been around.
(Seems that way, anyhow.)
Currently I'm using--no, make that trying to use--the stuff from LMI.
We hates it, Precious.
I can't get total adhesion over the entire silly p/g.
Little splotchy gray areas, even where there are no air bubles.

What I'm wondering is this: is there a magic material that someone has stumbled upon that is making life easier for you?

I know it's possible. I have a Goodall here in the shop, and you really can't see the clear pickguard, except at just the right angle.

Help........

Steve [headinwall]
Author:  Don Williams [ Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Clear Pickguards... Kinnaird's Bane!
Steve, it's all in the application. If you start with one edge only, leaving the backing on it everywhere else, then work the edge straight and smooth, then slowly roll it out and smooth out each little bit as you go. Don't try it all at once.
Once it's out it's just a matter of lightly burnishing it, but you'll want to make sure you get good application the whole way through the process. Any little crease will cause a blotch too, so avoid them like the plague. Lightly burnish from the middle out. I usually do that with my fingers and a cloth. Don't burnish too hard or you'll have issues.
Author:  Dave White [ Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Clear Pickguards... Kinnaird's Bane!
Steve,

I've used the Stew Mac Mylar Self Adhesive sheets and Frank Ford's water method with good result. But you've probably been there, done that, got the T-shirt.
Author:  Mike Collins [ Wed Oct 15, 2008 3:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Clear Pickguards... Kinnaird's Bane!
Read Todd Stocks reply to Robbies post about pickguard glue!

Mike
Author:  Steve Kinnaird [ Wed Oct 15, 2008 5:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Clear Pickguards... Kinnaird's Bane!
Thanks guys--keep it coming!

Don, I have used H20 before, and even that was not picture perfect. I guess that I'll have to close the shop for a week and practice putting clear pickguards on things.

Thanks again,

Steve
Author:  Jimmy Caldwell [ Wed Oct 15, 2008 5:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Clear Pickguards... Kinnaird's Bane!
Steve,

I'm right there with you. I've just about quit using them because I'm never satisfied with the application. I'm inclined to say that the self-adhesive sheets are not the way to go. I've tried the water method and it does work better, but I still have a problem with the perimeter. The edges never seem to fully adhere, no matter how much burnishing I do. I'm going to try the 3M adhesive on .005 mylar, but if that doesn't work, I'll be watching this thread closely. I know it's doable, because I see good applications all the time.
Author:  PaulB [ Wed Oct 15, 2008 5:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Clear Pickguards... Kinnaird's Bane!
One of my summer jobs when I was still in school was putting clear self adhesive labels on display stands. Not the best job in the world I know.

Anyway, we'd wet the label in soapy water before applying it. It'd slide around a little and give us a chance of getting it positioned just right as well as helping to get the bubbles out from under. Don't know if Frank puts soap in his water, works better if there's some in there though. The soap is the key.
Author:  Hesh [ Wed Oct 15, 2008 5:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Clear Pickguards... Kinnaird's Bane!
Steve my friend Frank Ford has a toot on his site that you are probably aware of. The couple that I have installed I used Frank's method and a "Pink Pearl" eraser as a squeegee and they came out great.

As difficult is it is to use an appropriate amount of water on a guitar top...... it really does no harm and displaces the air as promised. It's always a good idea to place a drool bucket in the sound hole too to protect the label and the back from water spots.
Author:  Jim Watts [ Wed Oct 15, 2008 7:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Clear Pickguards... Kinnaird's Bane!
Steve, I've had good luck with both the LMI and StewMac stuff.
Clean the area really well with Naptha.
Put a drop of soap in the water solution (use distilled water also) to break the surface tension. It should lay down a nice film, not blotches of water over the area.
Start at one end and work the water out from under the pick gaurd. I use a rubber roller.
It takes a few days for any remaining moisture to escape, we're talking tiny amounts here not puddles. Also the adhesion will increase over the few days.
I suspect you really know most of this, I think the part you may have been missing is the distilled water with a touch of soap.
Good luck
Author:  Darrel Friesen [ Wed Oct 15, 2008 8:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Clear Pickguards... Kinnaird's Bane!
Stephen Faulk has a good tutorial over on the MIMF (in the library) that shows how to attach a clear "Golpeadore" to a Flamenco guitar using Titebond. May be worth a visit.
Author:  Steve Kinnaird [ Wed Oct 15, 2008 10:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Clear Pickguards... Kinnaird's Bane!
Yeah, ok, soap I'll try.
And water.
(But I'll probably balk at that distilled water.)
But see, I've done all this before...and.... gaah

And since the gray matter is starting to percolate,
how do you guys cut your clear pickguards?
I've used scissors, knives, flamethrowers and even lawnmowers.
Yet another job that somehow compresses the edges and yields
an odd appearance all around the perimeter.
Do the b-i-g boys have metal dies that cut these things out like
grandma used to cut biscuits?

One more question--don't you think it takes a man to admit he's been out-witted by a piece of plastic? [uncle]

Steve
Author:  Ken Franklin [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 12:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Clear Pickguards... Kinnaird's Bane!
I cut out the clear pickguards from LMI counter clockwise shiny side up with a scissors. That seems to turn the edge down a little. What do you do your final buffing with? That might be a problem.
Author:  Todd Rose [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Clear Pickguards... Kinnaird's Bane!
Hey Steve,

I'm sorry this has been such a gaah for you. I think there are little things like this that seem to stump each of us and cause a lot of frustration. Hang in there. You'll get it straightened out. And yes, you are manly, indeed. ;)

I use the clear self-adhesive material from LMI and cut them out with good quality hair cutting scissors (thanks to a tip on this forum from I-don't-remember-who). I have a dedicated pair in the shop. Works great - nice, clean edge (and I'm very picky about things like this!).

I apply them dry. I just tape down the one edge, flip it back (using the taped edge as a hinge, so now the backing is up), and then peel the backing as I roll the sheet down very carefully. I keep it curled back pretty tightly as I roll it down. The key is the careful rolling down of the material as it's being applied, which prevents any possibility of air getting trapped underneath. There is hardly any need for burnishing, per se, if this is done carefully. I just use my fingers, no roller or eraser or anything. I haven't had any problems (yet!) with adhesion, air bubbles, or anything like that, so I haven't tried it any other way.

Please forgive me for stating the obvious - no insult intended - but it's also essential to not touch the adhesive side at all.

Good luck!
Author:  Steve Kinnaird [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Clear Pickguards... Kinnaird's Bane!
Todd Rose wrote:

Please forgive me for stating the obvious - no insult intended - but it's also essential to not touch the adhesive side at all.

Good luck!


Oh yeah, I've done that too, Todd.
And, it would have to occur on an otherwise perfect installation.
I figured the customer didn't want my fingerprint *literally* on their guitar. I know I didn't.

Ken, I cut like you do. Except for the half-circle around the rosette.
How do you cut that tight radius w/ scissors? (Or do you cut to fit the circle of the rosette??) For this step I end up w/ an Exacto.

I burnish w/ a rag or fingertip. But you asked about buffing...and I have wondered if taking it to the buffing wheel would work....

Thanks guys,

Steve
Author:  Steve Kinnaird [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Clear Pickguards... Kinnaird's Bane!
Steve Kinnaird wrote:
Todd Rose wrote:

Please forgive me for stating the obvious - no insult intended - but it's also essential to not touch the adhesive side at all.

Good luck!


Oh yeah, I've done that too, Todd.
And, it would have to occur on an otherwise perfect installation.
I figured the customer didn't want my fingerprint *literally* on their guitar. I know I didn't.

Ken, I cut like you do. Except for the half-circle around the rosette.
How do you cut that tight radius w/ scissors? (Or do you cut to fit the circle of the rosette??) For this step I end up w/ an Xacto.

I burnish w/ a rag or fingertip. But you asked about buffing...and I have wondered if taking it to the buffing wheel would work....

Thanks guys,

Steve
Author:  Steve Kinnaird [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Clear Pickguards... Kinnaird's Bane!
Todd Rose wrote:

Please forgive me for stating the obvious - no insult intended - but it's also essential to not touch the adhesive side at all.

Good luck!


Oh yeah, I've done that too, Todd.
And, it would have to occur on an otherwise perfect installation.
I figured the customer didn't want my fingerprint *literally* on their guitar. I know I didn't.

Ken, I cut like you do. Except for the half-circle around the rosette.
How do you cut that tight radius w/ scissors? (Or do you cut to fit the circle of the rosette??) For this step I end up w/ an Xacto.

I burnish w/ a rag or fingertip. But you asked about buffing...and I have wondered if taking it to the buffing wheel would work....

Thanks guys,

Steve
Author:  Ken Franklin [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 6:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Clear Pickguards... Kinnaird's Bane!
Steve, I cut to the outside of the rosette with a small scissors like Todd uses. I also apply it like Todd does without water. I was asking about the final buffing you do before you apply the pickguard. I was thinking that maybe something was reacting to the adhesive.
Author:  KiwiCraig [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 6:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Clear Pickguards... Kinnaird's Bane!
G'day Steve,

Like others , I've just applied dry ,no problems , mainly because i was concerned what it may do to a french polished top. Shellac not liking water .

I made an inside template for a scalpel to register against for the cut-out around the soundhole .

Never be tempted to touch up any of the cut edge with an abrasive . It leaves a sort of white frosted look and can become noticeable , but you would have already known this I'm sure.

Edit : Just another thought Steve . By rolling out the pickguard with a bit too much force , you may in fact be stretching the material causing the edges to lift a tad when it settles ? :roll:

Cheers ,

Craig Lawrence
__________________
Author:  Steve Kinnaird [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Clear Pickguards... Kinnaird's Bane!
Ken, gotcha. I dunno, I try to clean that area--where the pickguard will sit-- as if you'll be viewing whatever is there for the rest of your life. (Say that slowly like Phil Connors from "Groundhog Day".)
You must be a whiz w/ scissors. I have difficulty cutting an inside curve. I wonder how many more of my lutherie problems stem from flunking kindergarten....

Craig, your solution is in keeping w/ your other forms of creativity.
I really need to visit your shop.
Oh pish, what if I just send you my pickguard patterns and YOU cut 'em out?

Thanks fellas,

Steve
Author:  KiwiCraig [ Fri Oct 17, 2008 4:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Clear Pickguards... Kinnaird's Bane!
Steve Kinnaird wrote:

Craig, your solution is in keeping w/ your other forms of creativity.
I really need to visit your shop.


Steve


No problem at all Steve ,it would be great to see you . Just rock-on down under and I'll throw some prawns on the barby :D

Cheers mate



Craig Lawrence
_________________
Author:  Blanchard [ Fri Oct 17, 2008 5:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Clear Pickguards... Kinnaird's Bane!
I use the Stew-Mac mylar stuff. Here are some tricks I have learned.

Draw your pattern in reverse on the back side of the material.

Using sharp scissors rough cut to within 1/2 inch of the line.

Now, hold the material in your left hand. While looking at your pattern drawn on the backside, cut to the line with the scissors. Assuming you are right handed, you will be cutting counter-clockwise around the pickguard. Angle the scissors about 30 -40 degrees from perpendicular to the surface. This will cut a bevel on the edge of the pickguard. Cutting counter-clockwise from the back rolls the edge slightly, making it want to stay down when applied to the guitar. If your cut while facing the face of the pickguard, the edge will tend to curl up and the adhesive will have a hard time holding it down on the guitar.

Once it is cut, position it on the guitar and apply a tape hinge to the edge opposite the soundhole. Apply another piece of tape to the opposite edge to form a handle so that you can handle the pickguard without touching it.

Hinge the pickguard up, make sure the top is perfectly clean, and use a razor blade to separate the paper backing from the mylar. Do not let the razor blade, or anything else, touch the adhesive !!

Once the paper is off roll the pickguard into position stating at the hinged edge. Light finger pressure is all that is needed. Heavy burnishing is not necessary and will not remove the splotchy looking adhesive/moisture showing through. It will, however, disappear on its own in about a week.

If something goes wrong, lightly heat it with a hairdryer and slowly peel it off.

When I first started applying clear pickguards I had about a 33% success rate. After learning the above tricks, my success rate went up to about 75%. These days my failures are usually due to a spec of grit getting underneath and causing a "pimple".

Mark
Author:  Steve Kinnaird [ Fri Oct 17, 2008 10:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Clear Pickguards... Kinnaird's Bane!
Mark, thanks!

I'm going to think some on the main body of cutting techniques in your post. I'm doing about 98% of what you said, but angling the scissors is a new one. I'm going to try that.

That said, the 2nd piece of tape used as a handle is a plam-to-forehead revelation. That's always such a tricky operation. I've been using old (but clean) p/g backing paper as a device to "handle" the pickguard. It won't mar the adhesive, since it was once against it, anyway. However, your solution sounds so much safer.

I think I see some light at the end of the tunnel.
I'll let you know if it's a train....

Thanks again,

Steve
Author:  Blanchard [ Sat Oct 18, 2008 9:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Clear Pickguards... Kinnaird's Bane!
Having a "handle" on the pickguard really helps.

I don't actually use tape for the hinge and the handle. I use a piece of "transfer film" that is about an inch larger than the pickguard all the way around. Transfer film is a special, low adhesion tape used by sign makers for transferring vinyl lettering from the large sheet the letters are cut from to another surface. The tape is semi transparent and is available is a variety of sizes up to several feet wide. It has enough tack to hold the pickguard in position, but peels off easily with risk of pulling up the finish. It is GREAT stuff for pickguard application. It is also great for temporarily protecting finished areas. The adhesive will "etch" lacquer, though, so you don't want to leave it on for very long.

If you have a sign maker near you, stop in and so if you can get some pieces to experiment with. I bought a roll of 6" film 10 years ago for a few bucks. 150 pickguards later, I still about half of it.

Mark
Author:  Steve Kinnaird [ Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Clear Pickguards... Kinnaird's Bane!
Thanks Mark...in fact there IS a sign maker nearby. He's a good friend, we go to the same church, etc. I'll ask him about it.

To clear up a previous statement, my moment of revelation had nothing to do with plams. It was a palm to forehead moment. Lysdexia, sheesh....

Thanks,

Steve
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