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Hide Glue Again
http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=19254		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Terence Kennedy [ Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:13 am ]
Post subject:  Hide Glue Again
Greetings,
I've been using HHG for about a year now and love it. The question: Is there any credible data about how many times you can cycle a bottle of hide glue? I will make up a batch, put it in 3 or 4 oz plastic squeeze bottles to float in the water bath and stick them back in the fridge when the day is done and reheat the next day. Sometimes I'll re-heat a bottle several times before it's empty. Any known problem with this?
Terry
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide Glue Again
I know of no study but there probably is a few, assume there are lots of opinions out there. I go by smell but to be honest I keep only 6 oz bottle at a time ready to go. The rest is kept in the frig so I never go that many reheats before I go through 6 oz
Author:  Hesh [ Mon Oct 20, 2008 11:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide Glue Again
Terry my friend I do very much what you described only I use distilled water when initially mixing the HHG.

Typically I mix it in a 4 oz. bottle and then transfer 1/2 to a 2 oz bottle for two reasons: 1) I like the smaller bottle because of the smaller, more precise tip. 2) I have always been concerned about how many times I can reheat the same HHG too so if it's in a smaller bottle I use it up faster.

The other 2 ounces are put in the fridge and will be used as needed when I am out of the first 2 ounces. I always store HHG in the fridge when not in use and have reheated up to 6 times with no issues (that I know of....). I date the bottles and won't use it if it is more than 5-6 weeks old.

I did leave a bottle in the fridge for 3 months just to see how gross it gets and it visually did not change at all - no mold.

JJ is a good guy to talk to about HHG - he has done testing and he will also boil and sterilize the bottles that he uses prior to mixing also in an effort to belay the onset of mold. Hopefully JJ will weigh-in here as he is my resident HHG expert.
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Mon Oct 20, 2008 11:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide Glue Again
No formal study for me Terry, but anecdotally here's my experience. I make up a new batch each time I start a new guitar. I never allow my HHG to exceed 140*F.

1) I heat up a small squeeze bottle when I join the back and top and then refrigerate
2) Heat a 2nd time when I glue kerfed linings to sides
3) Heat a 3rd time when I am gluing on back braces
4) Reheat to glue back to sides
5) Reheat to glue up top braces
6) Reheat when I glue top to sides
7) Reheat when I glue up the bridge

So I have reheated at least 7 times over as long as 4 months with 10 guitars. I have never had a glue joint failure, even on the bridge which uses HHG that was reheated the most times extending over the longest duration. I have evaluated test joints comparing the old vs. a new batch and have not seen any difference...they both tear wood when tested to destruction. This testing was informal and over only about 3 samples.

Others typically discard HHG after a month without regard to the number of reheats.
Author:  Hesh [ Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide Glue Again
See - I told ya :D I say I will reheat 6 times and JJ says he reheats 7 times.....

Always have to one-up me don't ya bro...... laughing6-hehe :D
Author:  Andy Birko [ Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide Glue Again
Hesh wrote:
Terry my friend I do very much what you described only I use distilled water when initially mixing the HHG.

I did leave a bottle in the fridge for 3 months just to see how gross it gets and it visually did not change at all - no mold.


I think it has to do with how you close it up. I used to keep my HHG in a baby food jar in the hot pot. When it's been in the hot pot long enough, the glue is sterile or at least very sanitary. If you pop the top on straight from the hot water, it should keep in the fridge for a long time (assuming the top is pretty clean)

I had an experience similar to Hesh's where I left a bottle in the fridge and it kept for months. I've also had other experiences where they did get really moldy and nasty but I think it was a batch where either I was using a squeeze bottle and transferring to the baby food jar for storage (an opportunity for contamination) or I didn't put the cap on until the glue was already cold.
Author:  TonyFrancis [ Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide Glue Again
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Author:  JJ Donohue [ Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide Glue Again
TonyFrancis wrote:
You guys are CRAZY!!! Five to six weeks? Up to six reheatings? CRIKEY! Hide glue is incredibly cheap and easy to mix, why would you bother trying to stretch it so far for the sake of a few dollars or convenience?

Hide glue is a gelatin. So think of it like food (protein). Would you eat that stock based soup or steak if it had been in the fridge all week?

1 week maximum, and I wouldnt reccomend heating more than twice. After that, use it for marquetery, bone, shell, veneers or whatever...


You're absolutely entitled to your opinion, Tony... but please don't question my results. If YOU have test results that prove otherwise go ahead and post them. So feel free to discard your HHG but please try to resist questioning my sanity when I have data and successful results to back up such claims.
Author:  TonyFrancis [ Tue Oct 21, 2008 2:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide Glue Again
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Author:  Hesh [ Tue Oct 21, 2008 7:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide Glue Again
My concern when reading this thread is that some of the information provided, although everything I have seen so far is accurate IMHO, will create fear, uncertainty and doubt in the minds of prospective HHG users......... If my hunch is correct, that we are making using HHG seem more complicated than it indeed is, is that we will discourage new builders from discovering the many qualities and the actual ease-of-use of this glue.

JJ and I used to go rounds over if a newb should attempt to use HHG. JJ advocated learning to use HHG early on and experiencing the benefits of ease-of-use, superior bond, sonic benefits if you go to that church/temple (and I do.....), and the unique ability that HHG has to actually draw parts together as it bonds them - almost, I say almost but not entirely - self clamping.

In time I came to agree that JJ was correct and newbs would benefit from learning to use HHG early on.

IMHO HHG for many applications is actually easier to use than Titebond, LMI White, and some other glues. The initial tack is wonderful when gluing braces in a go-bar deck and greatly reduces the sliding around that happens until Titebond starts to set-up.

What might be helpful here to the masses of lurkers who have inquiring minds that just want to know is for everyone weighing in here to affirm, if you believe this is so, that HHG is NOT difficult to use and encourage folks to try it?

Thanks.
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Tue Oct 21, 2008 7:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide Glue Again
Tony...of course there are more important issues in assuring a quality glue joint. We're ONLY discussing the reheating variable in this thread.

Todd...All I use are 2 oz poly squeeze bottles and often freeze them. A few years ago, I froze HHG and tested it each month to see if there was any change in appearance consistency and most importantly, joint quality. I stopped after 11 months and concluded that the joints were as good at the 11th month as that from the first month. You MUST however, protect from freezer burn (dehydration) by reducing the air space in the bottle as well as wrapping in several layers of freezer wrap to insure consistency.

Also, on the mold issue... I have never gotten moldy glue probably due to the fact that the glue is heated in the squeeze bottle and always capped. Once you use HHG enough, you'll find that you start applying it straight from the bottle for most applications and rarely use a brush. Seconds can be precious!
Author:  Kim [ Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide Glue Again
Folks,

I think to say that well maintained (ie; regularly refrigerated between use) HHG could go off or have it's properties diminished in some way in just a week or two is pure uninformed nonsense and denies altogether the benefits of historical fact. The fact is that HHG IS indeed very much 'gelatin' and naturally contain a fair amount of mineral salts. If one takes the time to recall their local deli cabinet, or examines the small good industry in general, they will very soon realise that gelatin, in a more diluted form than HHG, is commonly used as a preservative over cured meat products.

In fact even products highly susceptible to bacterial infection such as chicken liver pat'e, are covered with nothing more than gelatin and fat yet manage to stay fresh for months at a time after their date of potting. This is because gelatin, and, as mentioned, mixed HHG is no more than gelatin in a most condensed form, is a very affective barrier and excludes the entry of air and bacteria. Whilst I am not an overly educated man and cannot present this next point as fact, I suspect that the reason gelatin is the chosen as THE medium for the pet-re dish when one wishes to cultivate a bacterial growth, is because the proteins contained with in the gelatin feed the introduced bacteria, whilst the properties of exclusion prevent it's rapid breakdown and purification.

In other words the gelatin allows the cultivation of bacteria ON it's scarified surface and not INTO it's surface. Regardless, the fact of the matter is that gelatin by it's very nature is a natural food preservative and indeed is one of the oldest and most effect known to man.

So before anyone starts to question or condemns anyone else's sanity over their re-use of HHG, it would assist everyone to understand the FACTS and to learn a little form this thread, which is after all the very point of a forum, if they could spent just a moment to examining and verify their assumptions, 'before' they confuse the issue at hand with still more misinformation as it is misinformation which really does spoil the glue pot.

Cheers

Kim
Author:  Kim [ Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide Glue Again
larkim wrote:
whilst the properties of exclusion prevent it's rapid breakdown and purification.

Cheers

Kim


That last word should of course read 'putrification' and not purification, told you I was not overly edumacated :D

Cheers

Kim
Author:  Terence Kennedy [ Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide Glue Again
Thanks for the responses guys. Interesting discussion. I have found myself going to the smallest bottles and not mixing as much when I do a new batch to avoid reheating too much over a long period of time.
Terry
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide Glue Again
You know, I like all of us am concerned when my glue goes bad. But worrying when it has been infiltrated buy bacteria. (shaking my head) I have more important things to worry with. Smell your glue before use, test you glue regularly and all will be fine.

Like Kim said hide glue is gelatin same as canning gelatin except we mix a more viscous concoction. Not a real problem for bacterial contamination.


Sort of off topic!
I remember back about 20 years ago or so when the anti-bacterial hand cleaner craze took hold. I said then, years down the road the antibacterial craze would lead to lack of natural immunity build up issues in kids due to lack of mitigated exposure. Well Doctors are agreeing these days. Extended and extreme exposure to most bacteria’s is a bad thing. Causal and mitigated exposure can be a very good thing.

But that is a whole different topic for a completely different forum
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide Glue Again
I recall seeing pictures of old glue pots in cabinet shops, that looked like they had not been cleaned or changed in 30 years of use. Old glue all over the outside, on the lip, and built up inside the pot. What did they do? They added some when needed and added some water to keep the consistency right. Wonder if they ever refrigerated those old pots? Wonder if they used distilled water? Wonder if they even bothered to smell the glue?

Just wondering! :D
Author:  TonyFrancis [ Tue Oct 21, 2008 7:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide Glue Again
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Author:  Hesh [ Tue Oct 21, 2008 7:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide Glue Again
Waddy are you sure that wasn't the shop toilet that you were seeing......... :D
Author:  TonyFrancis [ Tue Oct 21, 2008 7:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide Glue Again
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Author:  WaddyThomson [ Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide Glue Again
Now, that's a glue pot! He also does chisel overkill in that video.
Author:  Martin Turner [ Wed Oct 22, 2008 12:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide Glue Again
Okay.......steps to becoming a gun luthier:

1. get yourself a humungous glue pot......
Author:  TonyFrancis [ Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide Glue Again
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Author:  Kim [ Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide Glue Again
I agree Todd, there is so much myth attached to HHG and one thing I have notices is how quickly people take to it once they leave that BS behind and actually give it a go and then find themselves wondering what all the fuss and worry was about. Just the ease of clean up alone is reason enough to use HHG where ever you can, also what so many assume to be a negative property of HHG in the limited open time can in fact be such an bonus in many applications. Many times I find the initial tac of HHG to be nearly as good as a second pair of hands, especially when working inside a closed box. And the fact that a well fitting HHG joint will continue to draw itself tighter as it dries even without clamps is just a spiritually significant apparition send at times. [:Y:]

Cheers

Kim
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide Glue Again
3. Always work the scary sharp chisel toward your chest!
Author:  BruceHerrmann [ Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide Glue Again
I agree that one of the best reasons to use HHG is that initial tack you get, you can get
quite used to that and find that if you use another glue for some reason, you miss the HHG.
I've been experimenting with fish glue and find a lot of properties I like. It seems to dry
as hard as HHG though I have no evidence to prove that. It cleans up relatively easily but
it does not have that quick tack you get with HHG. It's main advantage seems to be length of open time. Working time is not an issue. But I agree on the HHG, don't make it to difficult,
if you are considering using it, jump in, try a couple of practice glue-ups and enjoy that wonderful smell. Ummmm, HHG laughing6-hehe
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