The U-channel leveling tool & handle.
I also use an appr. 2" for spot leveling, have longer ones but rarely use them, the 3 four inchers are the workhorses.
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| Do you build in relief in your necks? http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=19272 |
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| Author: | JRE Productions [ Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Do you build in relief in your necks? |
Now that #1 is done and is being broken in....I notice it needs no tention on the truss rod at all. In fact its almost is too straight. The neck is a 3 piece mahogany laminate. The relief is very minor with the truss rod nut basically loose. (I tighten it just enough not to rattle). I use a double bar rod, but its only a one direction truss rod system. (not a true double action TR). It performs simular to a Gibson style. Do you ever consider some relief in the wood working stages of this? Is this normal to have such a straight neck? The guitar has been strung up for about 1 week. Normally I would have adjusted a touch more releif in the neck than what it has. It does play excellent and does not buzz, but its not where I normally set it up. Joe |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Do you build in relief in your necks? |
No I build straight for this reason mainly. sting tension will naturally pull in some releif and the rest is easly handled by the truss rod. If under steel string tension the neck is straight (even laminated) with no truss rod tension. I would suspect that gluing up the fretboard or fretting may have induced some up bow, then under tension the neck is straight. How does the neck read un stung and no tension on the truss rod? |
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| Author: | JRE Productions [ Tue Oct 21, 2008 1:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Do you build in relief in your necks? |
It's dead straight with no string tention. Extremely little relief with string tention. Currently there is a set of light guage electric strings (GHS boomers 10-46?) on it. I would assume it would be a little different with mediums or accoustic lights. The Archtop is getting a floating magnetic pickup mounted and it needed the electric strings. I supose I could string it up with a little heavier gauge strings, but ultimately all my archtop electrics end up with Boomers on them. Maybe its time to re-think my playing style....ha! Not sure if this matters but the headstock is at about 15 degrees and the break angle over the bridge to the tail piece is also at about 15 degrees. I would assume the tention to get to A440hz is the same regardless of break angle, but its worth a note. Thanks for any help. |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Tue Oct 21, 2008 1:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Do you build in relief in your necks? |
I used to unintentionally build in back bow when I used water based Titebond for gluing the fret board. Since I switched to epoxy for fret boards I am building straight. My goal, like my friend Michael, is a straight neck also thinking that the 160+ pounds of string tension will offer the opportunity for relief it desired. |
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| Author: | Kevin Gallagher [ Tue Oct 21, 2008 1:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Do you build in relief in your necks? |
I always build in about .030" of relief when I assemble my necks and then pull them straight with the truss rod. Because i still like a one way rod, I find that it allows the string tension to provide plenty of relief that is very easily adjusted out using the rod. With alternate tunings being so popular and so many players switching tuning during a set, the tension can vary considerably from song to song, but my necks are very rigid and have the truss rod assembly along with a carbon fiber beam measuring 1/8" X 1/4" to either side running the entire length of the fingerboard. The strings don't present enough tension to pull them into a relieved state when I build them straight. That built in relief is always accessible, but easily removed and they stay very consistent under various tunings and their various tension levels. I set my personal guitars up with very small amount of relief of about .005" which is straight for all effects and purposes, but most player prefer a little more. Regards, Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars |
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| Author: | Barry Daniels [ Tue Oct 21, 2008 3:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Do you build in relief in your necks? |
Another approach that I and other users of single-action rods take is to slightly tighten the truss rod before the final leveling of the frets. This basically does the same thing as building in some relief, except you can level the frets with a flat tool instead of curved. This gives sufficient built-in relief that you have two way adjustability with the single action rod. |
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| Author: | Kevin Gallagher [ Tue Oct 21, 2008 6:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Do you build in relief in your necks? |
Barry, How and why would anyone ever level the frets with a tool curved to match the relief in a neck. I'm not sure if I'm getting what you were leaning toward there. With the relief built into the neck, its default position is in a relieved state and that relief is very easily pulled back to a flat neck using the truss rod. Then you have a nice flat neck with no tension on it, but with the capability of taking on relief with not string tension on it as well making the neck/rod assembly an active two way adjustment system. I hope that no one would think to level their frets without having the fingerboard perfectly flat and string tension applied. If they did, t would create a disastrous environment for unexpected buzzes to show up once the strings were pulled to pitch. Maybe you could expound on that point a little for those if us who level under string tension...and with a straight or flat tool. Regards, Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars |
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| Author: | Link Van Cleave [ Wed Oct 22, 2008 1:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Do you build in relief in your necks? |
" I hope that no one would think to level their frets without having the fingerboard perfectly flat and string tension applied. If they did, t would create a disastrous environment for unexpected buzzes to show up once the strings were pulled to pitch." I am having a hard time picturing this. How do you level frets when there are strings in the way ? Also do I have this straight. With a single action truss rod you get a double action system by doing it as Kevin does but with a double action truss rod you can build straight ? Link |
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| Author: | Kevin Gallagher [ Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Do you build in relief in your necks? |
Lvc, For the past 25 years or so, I've leveled frets with the strings in place and tuned to pitch and the neck pulled perfectly flat with the truss rod. I use a piece of 1"X1" angle stock from Home Depot or Lowe's with adhesive abrasive stuck to the outside of one of the surfaces. This can be easily slid under the strings and used to level the frets in the playing position and under the same tension that will be applied during play. I'll slide it under a pair of the strings at a time and work my way across the fingerboard and then remove the strings to do the final crowning and polishing. There are other builders and repair people who use this technique, but it was something that I'd tried back in the early 80s in an effort to save myself time and some of the typical headaches of getting a great fret leveling job done that would remain a great fret leveling job after the guitar was taken off of the bench, tuned and played. Odd things happen to any neck when string tension is applied and the small variations that can occur as relief is pulled into the neck by that tension are not always consistent or predictable since there are an infinite set of resistance variables that can occur in the organic mass that makes up either a one piece neck or a laminated neck. Also, yes, the way that I build my necks creates a situation in which the truss rod that I use provides the adjustment back in a typical one way rod fashion while the assembly of the neck, fingerboard, carbon fiber beams and truss rod with that .030" of static relief provides a positive force in the relief direction even when no strings are present. It more simulates a two way action than actually providing the mechanical push to get additional relief, but the amount being built into the neck is far more than will ever be needed or wanted by any player. When the strings are off of the guitar and the truss rod adjusting nut s back completely off, there should be some relief present when a one way rod is being used. With the various string gauges available and alternate tunings presenting various tensions during play it's just turned out to be a very practical thing for me to continue to do. Regards, Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Do you build in relief in your necks? |
Is this not the same thing that Rick Turner turned us on to with his fret leveler? |
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| Author: | Terence Kennedy [ Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Do you build in relief in your necks? |
Right now I'm leveling under moderate truss rod tension then fretting which usually results in a fretboard that is close to flat with slight truss rod tension. With my carbon bar neck reinforcement and the LMI two way rod this has worked out well giving adequate relief at string-up. You can preview a rough idea of relief you'll get by supporting the headstock and putting 5 or 6 lbs of weight on each shoulder of the upper bout to mimic string tension. ( you can experiment on your own guitars to see how much weight gives the same relief as strung up with your standard gauge of strings) I usually level the frets in this configuration (headstock supported and weight on the upper bout) and then touch up with the angle stock after strung up. It's an evolving process with me and this is where I am at this point in time. Question for Kevin G: Do you use a nut extension with the angle stock leveling so the strings don't pinch at the upper end of the neck? Terry |
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| Author: | Kevin Gallagher [ Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Do you build in relief in your necks? |
Hesh, It may be something that Rick Turner uses, but I've been doing it for 25 years....long before I ever knew who Rick was. There are a few guys who have been using it for quite some time and I'm guessing that they arrived at it for much the same reasons that I did. It just made sense to me back then and, being a machinist and toolmaker, gave me easy access to the angle stock needed even before Home Depot and Lowe's were in every town. My Grandfather owned a huge shop that was split into two separate operations and businesses, one being a machine shop and small foundry and the other being a cabinet and custom stair shop that catered to most of the home builders in the area. His shop is where my three milling machines and my Monarch Toolroom lathe came from. I spent all kinds of time around his shop while I was growing up and then went on to work in others that were owned by friends.....while playing with bands at night and giving lessons and doing studio work whenever possible. I just liked the machine work so I always looked for opportunities to be in a shop during the day. Really, the thing that inspired me to even try the angle deal was the simple fact that when I would level frets with the string tension removed from the neck and then tune up, I'd have to spend more time spot checking and addressing small high spots in individual frets. It just eliminates that additional time and work needed to achieve a nice level set of fret crowns on a tuned guitar. I used to use 1"X1" steel angle that was machined to bring the thickness of each leg down to about .060" and flat to within .002" over its 16 inch length, but with the availability of nice clean aluminum angle today, I've switched to that. Regards, Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Do you build in relief in your necks? |
Just a note here to someone who may go out an buy a piece of 1x1 aluminum angle 16" long and expect it to be flat. the mill tolerance on extruded aluminum angle for flatness over 1' is +/-.045 per foot for aluminum extruded angle with flange thickness less than .250 thick. Some pieces will be very flat some will not. The friction heat involved in cold extrusion of aluminum is rapidly dissipated so it is usually pretty close to mid tolerance on flatness and always has a nice smooth surface but smoothness is not a reflection of flatness. It is best to treat the flanges like a new plane sole and true them up using sandpaper on a known flat surface if using long lenght like 16" |
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| Author: | Kevin Gallagher [ Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Do you build in relief in your necks? |
Good point Michael. I should have mentioned that anytime you use a surface in an effort to create a flat plain, it's essential that the surface bearing the abrasive is flat first. I've learned over the years to never trust a tool to do exactly what it's intended to do before I spend a little time with it and true it up or set it up. Trusting them would be like unpacking your new jointer or other machine and expecting to be able to just start it up and cut with it. It takes some set up and tweaking to get things ready. Thanks, Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Do you build in relief in your necks? |
Kevin Gallagher wrote: Good point Michael. I should have mentioned that anytime you use a surface in an effort to create a flat plain, it's essential that the surface bearing the abrasive is flat first. I've learned over the years to never trust a tool to do exactly what it's intended to do before I spend a little time with it and true it up or set it up. Trusting them would be like unpacking your new jointer or other machine and expecting to be able to just start it up and cut with it. It takes some set up and tweaking to get things ready. Thanks, Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars Kevin, One question or clarification of an assumption. You add relief at neck construction, attach a pre-flattened fretboard and fret it. Once strung up you level out with the truss rod and level the frets from there with the intent to have level frets on a string and truss rod loaded fretboard/neck. If I follow Your sequence correctly then the finger board and frets are level with no measurable relief when finished and ready to play. |
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| Author: | Jeffrey L. Suits [ Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Do you build in relief in your necks? |
Kevin Gallagher wrote: Lvc, I use a piece of 1"X1" angle stock from Home Depot or Lowe's with adhesive abrasive stuck to the outside of one of the surfaces I use 1/2" aluminum U-channel, bottom trued, under each string. I can get to the first fret with these. I file ramps at each end, inside, so the wound strings don't catch an edge. Recently, I made a Q&D wood handle for them, better grip. I'll take a pic or two, post them later. |
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| Author: | Link Van Cleave [ Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Do you build in relief in your necks? |
Kevin, Do you put a handle on the thing ? 1" doesn't seem like much to grab on to. I am thinking that you are pretty close to where you want to be and this is a fine tune type of thing ? I would imagine you are getting feedback from the scratches being 90° to the scratches from the leveling that I assume you do lengthwise before adding the nut and strings. Anyone put blueing on the frets to better see whats going on. Link |
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| Author: | Kevin Gallagher [ Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Do you build in relief in your necks? |
Michael, I work .030" of relief into the neck at construction reading the unfretted board at the 1st and 14th fret slots. I then attach that neck to the body and, when the joint in complete and dry, I pull the neck straight using the truss rod so that the board is perfectly flat. Once the board is flat, I true the fingerboard surface using an aluminum block with a machined and true 16 inch radius to level anything in the bare board surface. The most common area to get contact from the radiused leveler is around the 14th fret where a little hump may develop with the introduction of glue and the subsequent moisture in the neck joint. It may be .005" or so high and takes very little time to level. This gives me a flat and true approach for the board to the bridge and has it ready for fretting. Once fretted, the frets are very close to level and need very little leveling, if any at all. I't not uncommon for me to not have to do any leveling at this point, but i always rub the leveling angle on the frets marked with bluing to check them for level. If they're installed consistently onto a level fingerboard, it only makes sense that they will, in be very close to level themselves. The guitar is strung and pulled to concert pitch and the strings are allowed, at this time to pull the neck into a typically relieved position. The saddle hasn't been dressed down to its final height and the nut slots are not cut to their final depth allowing me open clearance from the 1st to the 20th frets with the aluminum angle piece. The 1" angle leg is plenty to hold onto since there isn't much pressure being applied and 400 grit paper on the angle side making contact with the fret crowns. There's no need for a handle of any sort unless you're a delicate flower with very sensitive hands. If you're needing to take more than .003" or .004" off of any given fret in the coarse length, your fret job is not as consistent as it should be or the fingerboard was not properly leveled in preparation for fretting. A few very light strokes even with 400 grit should find your leveling surface touching all 20 frets evenly. Too many builders and repair guys try to level everything off of the fret crowns and it results in a disaster on the fingerboard with frets being visibly thinner than others and the playability of the guitar suffers as well. I was with Bill Lawrence in his shop when he was here in PA and he was a stickler for properly installed frets and would touch them with nothing more than a strop patch to polish them....and his guitars played great. I recently saw some photos of a fret job on a brand new guitar that was a complete mess with loose fret ends and frets that had been sanded flat and obviously lower then others close to them. The guy obviously went right into building before he ever knew anything about repair or fret work. The potential for relief in excess of what any player will ever want is build into my necks during construction and plenty of adjustment against it is available using the truss rods that I use. I have them made by a shop to my specs and they are very durable and efficient. The static straight position can easily be adjusted away from in either direction by a truss rod adjustment since the rod is still engaged from a deep negative relief all the way forward to the built in .030" of positive relief. I hope that clarifies my process and motives a little. I've worked on so many guitars that have had no relief capabilities because of overly rigid and straight built necks and others with a truss rod that couldn't provide the adjustment necessary to fight string tension. I've used this rod in more than 450 acoustics that I've built and used it in thousands of electric necks that I made in the 80s that ended up on guitars sold by some of the big manufacturing shops. I've never had one break, bind up or fail to work yet. Regards, Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Do you build in relief in your necks? |
Thanks Kevin This is a small departure from my process but I see advatages that I like. i was really only uncertin of when you leveled your fretbord pre fretting so this cleares this up for me. Thanks a ton. I just printed this off to use on the next one coming off the bench. |
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| Author: | Jeffrey L. Suits [ Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Do you build in relief in your necks? |
The U-channel leveling tool & handle. I also use an appr. 2" for spot leveling, have longer ones but rarely use them, the 3 four inchers are the workhorses.
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| Author: | Terence Kennedy [ Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Do you build in relief in your necks? |
Very nice Yundev. If you guys are leveling a straight radius fretboard with the strings at tension I assume you move your device parallel to the center line of the board. Do you ever try to get a compound radius effect on a straight radius board by leveling in line with the strings using the L or U channel devices? Terry |
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| Author: | Jeffrey L. Suits [ Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Do you build in relief in your necks? |
Terence Kennedy wrote: Very nice Yundev. If you guys are leveling a straight radius fretboard with the strings at tension I assume you move your device parallel to the center line of the board. Do you ever try to get a compound radius effect on a straight radius board by leveling in line with the strings using the L or U channel devices? Terry Thank you--this method, using U-channel, I remember reading about in a Big Red Book, the luthier's name was Bishop Cochran. I had also used the L-stock, but found this to be much faster; I made the handle because of my problematic wrists. I run under the lie of each string, and move back & forth enough to blend across the top of the frets; I suppose that becomes a sort of de-facto compound radius. The instrument IS the "neck jig", with this method--you're dealing with the real world, not a virtual, jigged-up one. |
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