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Heath,

.030" relief is too much. Most proper setups are half that. I prefer under .010". There's no benefit to be had with anything greater. Don't be tempted to correct problems with saddle height and neck angle with relief.

I would revisit the neck angle issue. If that's not right, nothing else will be. Simply adding height to the saddle might get the right string height over the frets, but it could lead to too much pull on trailing edge of the bridge which often messes with the tone, or worse, a cracked bridge. And no matter what else you do, you'll still have the neck angle wrong. Back up, get the foundational stuff right—the neck angle in this case—and save yourself a lot of headaches later on.

Several here have posted tutorials on neck angles.

Keep us posted!

Pat

Author:	Heath Blair [ Sat Oct 03, 2009 6:02 pm ]
Post subject:	setup issues
well, im mostly done with my first and im very happy with the way it sounds. im not, however, terribly happy with the way it plays. the action is decent, i just get buzzing on all strings mostly when fretted at frets 12 through 14, but some buzzing in general all up and down the neck. i thought that i just had some high frets around that area so i took the strings off and leveled everything south of the 12th and recrowned. i also adjusted the truss rod, which gave more relief in the middle of the neck, but made little difference where the buzzing was coming from - and also just made the action higher than i wanted it to be. after that... more of the same problem. here are the vital signs: 14 fret neck joint, 28' top radius, approx. .030" relief at the 6th fret when fretted at the 1st and 14th, .125" gap at bridge with straight edge held on fretted neck (i know its high and probably the problem, but im not willing to reset the neck angle at this point), the saddle is already about .180" high in the middle and radiused to approx. 20" to match the fretboard... cant think of any other important information, although im sure there is. where should i go now? my thoughts are that the neck angle is too high and causing the guitar to have an excessively high saddle. the saddle needs to be taller for the frets down the neck not to buzz, but that makes it... well, too high. what do you think? thanks in advance.

Author:	Pat Foster [ Sat Oct 03, 2009 7:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: setup issues
Heath, .030" relief is too much. Most proper setups are half that. I prefer under .010". There's no benefit to be had with anything greater. Don't be tempted to correct problems with saddle height and neck angle with relief. I would revisit the neck angle issue. If that's not right, nothing else will be. Simply adding height to the saddle might get the right string height over the frets, but it could lead to too much pull on trailing edge of the bridge which often messes with the tone, or worse, a cracked bridge. And no matter what else you do, you'll still have the neck angle wrong. Back up, get the foundational stuff right—the neck angle in this case—and save yourself a lot of headaches later on. Several here have posted tutorials on neck angles. Keep us posted! Pat

Author:	Mark Groza [ Sat Oct 03, 2009 7:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: setup issues
You said you took the strings off and leveled the strings.You want to level with the strings on in tension as that is the only way to get an accurate leveling of the frets.Once your frets are properly level and you are still getting a buzz.It could be caused by the nut or saddle.So make sure you have the proper break angle from those.And they are flat on there seats.

Author:	truckjohn [ Sat Oct 03, 2009 7:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: setup issues
Check out the action info here: http://www.bryankimsey.com/setup/index.htm I found I had to measure the action height in the way Bryan calls out -- using Automotive feeler gages. You can get a whole set of them for like $6.00 at most any auto parts store.... A ruler just isn't anything close to "Precision" My own results.... I follow what he says to do for both Action and Neck relief... and all is wonderful with my guitars. Hope this helps some. John

Author:	Rod True [ Sun Oct 04, 2009 12:32 am ]
Post subject:	Re: setup issues
I agree with Pat, your relief is way to much and that could easily aid in buzzing, especially every fret after #6/7. What does the top of your saddle look like? Do you have the edges rounded over? If it is flat on top the string may be hitting on both the front edge and the back edge and this can cause buzzing too.

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Author:	bluescreek [ Sun Oct 04, 2009 6:17 am ]
Post subject:	Re: setup issues
When you level frets, under tension or not , you need the neck flat. In most cases you may have a hump at the neck joint if you didn't set that area up properly . Once leveled you need to crown them. This buzzing , are you sure it is fret buzz and not a saddle buzz ? Buzzes can be a pain to cure , if you don't know the cause. Relief should be .000 to .010 . This is with a capo on the 1st fret and on the loser side of the 12th fret. Measure at the 7th fret from the top of the fret to under the string. I use a guitar string . A 12 string G is great for this. Also paper. Feeler gauges are ok but I have seem many that thought they knew how to use them really didn't. Also be sure you don't have any loose frets. One thing to help you see if it may be your neck angle , if you site along the edge of the fretboard and sire your bridge , at what point does this line set to ? You can also check it with a straight edge and the strings off , where is the straight edge at the point of the bridge ? If you are touching the bridge , you may need to rethink your neck angle. Good luck.

Author:	Fred Tellier [ Sun Oct 04, 2009 10:41 am ]
Post subject:	Re: setup issues
The numbers Bryan Kimsey states on his web are great for a starting point, or for a Bluegrass flatpicker, most fingerstyle players or flatpickers who venture beyond the 5th fret or will ask for it somewhat lower action which will accentuate any fret height issues. I like the feeler gauge for checking, though care must be taken to keep the feelers parallel with the strings. Fred

Author:	truckjohn [ Sun Oct 04, 2009 11:47 am ]
Post subject:	Re: setup issues
Where I was coming from listing Bryan's site and nothing else was that the O.P.'s info was pretty inadequate to come up with anything but a wild guess... What is the action at the 1st fret? What is the action at the 12th fret? What is the string height above the soundboard at the bridge? What gage strings? How is he holding it when plucking it -- flat on its back or like we would normally play? How do you know it is fret buzz? As posted, this could easily be a Nut problem, saddle problem, string height problem, neck problem, fret problem... I would start by following Bryan's recommendations... Start with neck relief, then set the Nut/1st string action, then set the Saddle action near "Rythm player" specs... This is a good safe setup to then go tracking down where you problems are. MEASURE action at 1st and 12th frets on all 6 strings. If the Low E action is 0.060" at the 1st fret and 0.065" at the 12th fret and the string height at the bridge is 0.325"... Fix that 1st.... and if the 12th fret action is 0.070" and the String height at the bridge is almost 3/4" -- well.... nothing to do but get that neck thing straightened out. Good luck John

Author:	Heath Blair [ Sun Oct 04, 2009 7:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: setup issues
thanks to everyone who responded. ive been away for a bit... painting the babys room. Pat Foster wrote: Heath, .030" relief is too much. Most proper setups are half that. I prefer under .010". There's no benefit to be had with anything greater. Don't be tempted to correct problems with saddle height and neck angle with relief. I would revisit the neck angle issue. If that's not right, nothing else will be. Simply adding height to the saddle might get the right string height over the frets, but it could lead to too much pull on trailing edge of the bridge which often messes with the tone, or worse, a cracked bridge. And no matter what else you do, you'll still have the neck angle wrong. Back up, get the foundational stuff right—the neck angle in this case—and save yourself a lot of headaches later on. Several here have posted tutorials on neck angles. Keep us posted! Pat im sorry to say that i know you are right. i just dont know what to do with the neck angle at this point. i dont especially want to unglue the fretboard extension. this is a completely different topic all together (i think ill actually start one...), but the way the box was constructed didint leave me enough room to get the neck angle adjusted so that a straight edge would lay closer over the bridge. had i adjusted the neck angle properly, there would have been a crazy hump at the neck/body joint. whats the best way to get it to play as well as i can without adjusting the neck angle? maybe the bridge will belly enough over time that the angle will be closer?

Author:	Heath Blair [ Sun Oct 04, 2009 7:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: setup issues
[/quote]You said you took the strings off and leveled the strings.You want to level with the strings on in tension as that is the only way to get an accurate leveling of the frets.[/quote] how do you do that? [/quote]Check out the action info here: http://www.bryankimsey.com/setup/index.htm[/quote] awesome! thanks so much! i will definitely study that. [/quote]I agree with Pat, your relief is way to much and that could easily aid in buzzing, especially every fret after #6/7. What does the top of your saddle look like? Do you have the edges rounded over? If it is flat on top the string may be hitting on both the front edge and the back edge and this can cause buzzing too.[/quote] the saddle is still flat and i have not set the intonation yet. it doesnt sound like the saddle buzzing, but i will definitely investigate that.

Author:	Mark Groza [ Sun Oct 04, 2009 7:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: setup issues
I level my frets with a piece of 1/2"u-channel and self stick sandpaper.It will fit around each string and allow you to level the frets while strung.But first you must get the neck strait with the truss rod first.

Author:	Heath Blair [ Tue Oct 20, 2009 7:32 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: setup issues
wow, did i not even have a clue about setup and action! im only slightly more informed now, but im getting there. i didnt/dont even know what questions to ask really. i wasnt quite sure what to do with the info that everyone here gave me. i went and bought some feeler gauges, so here are some more specific numbers. phosphor bronze light strings: .012, .016, .025, .032, .042, .054 . .009" neck relief when fretted at the 1st and 14th as measured at the 7th. .025" 1st fret action, .065" 12th fret action at the low E. .550" string height over the soundboard in front of the bridge. .180" saddle height at D and G strings. does that help diagnose anything? thanks again.

Author:	Rod True [ Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: setup issues
If your saddle is still flat you can easily get buzzing there. The strings can ride the front and back sharp edge of the saddle and one may bear down slightly harder than the other, the "looser" side can buzz. A slight rounding of the saddle will eliminate the buzzing, but setting the intonation will really help ensure the saddle is shaped properly. From your last numbers, I'd have to say that your action at the 12th fret low E string is very very low, especially if you have that much saddle sitting up out of the bridge and 0.550" of string height over the soundboard. This also unfortunately (only because you have more work to do) leads me to believe that you need to reset your neck correctly. In your current neck set, you'd need to add about 1/16" more saddle height just to get a decent action at the 12th fret. This will increase the torque at the front of your bridge and can cause it to crack at the front of the saddle slot over time. It will also induce more torque to cause the top to belly pre-maturely. So your neck is set back to much and needs to come up.

Author:	peterm [ Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:32 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: setup issues
John Hall gave great advise. Straighten the neck with the truss rod with the strings off. First think I'd look at would be the 14th fret and see if there is a hump there. If so a reset may be needed to remove hump unless you can compensate on the frets. After the 14th fret area is addressed level all the frets with the neck straight. Install the strings and induce relief ONLY if needed. Good luck.

Author:	David Malicky [ Sun Oct 25, 2009 2:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: setup issues
So sorry to hear about the virus. Hope you are better soon, and your family was out of that loop. I'm noticing quite a variety of guidance on neck relief... Erlewine's book says 0.005" - 0.010": http://books.google.com/books?id=zF24JM ... eck+relief Ford says 0.013" to 0.026", depending on style: http://frets.com/FRETSPages/Musician/Ge ... tradj.html Cumpiano suggests 0.030" - 0.045": http://www.cumpiano.com/Home/Newsletter ... tter1.html (though since he says doesn't measure it, those numbers might not be as accurate?) Is it better to compensate for harder playing with more relief, higher action, or both?

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Author:	Ken Franklin [ Fri Oct 23, 2009 1:23 am ]
Post subject:	Re: setup issues
All or most of this is good advice but if this is a new guitar, I would wait a month or so to see if the neck geometry changes at all before doing anything radical. The neck angle can change in that amount of time and then your saddle might not have to be too much taller to get the higher action you need on the low E string. Then you can see if there is a hump at the body join that needs to be addressed.

Author:	Tom West [ Sun Oct 25, 2009 9:20 am ]
Post subject:	Re: setup issues
John Hall gave you one very important piece of advice. Check for loose frets,especially on the ends where this normally happens. If you are trying to level and crown frets that are loose you will chase your tail forever. Action at 12th much too low for low E,even too low for high E in my book.Relief ok but don't go higher.You are also a tad high at the nut. You will most likely gain a bit of leway as your top settles in but think you should look at resetting that neck. Good luck. Tom.

Author:	truckjohn [ Sun Oct 25, 2009 12:27 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: setup issues
This isn't an Electric gutiar.... You will find it is very difficult to stop buzzes with this low of a 12th fret action, even for experienced luthiers.... and the Guitar will be Extremely sensitive to humidity and temperature fluctuations. Start by making a new saddle. Measure all the strings and aim for Bryan's "Rythm" player or "Fiddle tune" player setup, then see how she fares. This will help track down fret buzzes, saddle buzzes, and nut buzzes. It is very easy to lower the saddle as the guitar settles in over the next year. I wouldn't be too concerned about the 0.550" height above the soundboard at this point... This is a 1st guitar, and your string height above the soundboard once you raise the saddle will still be well within "Standard" string heights used on Acoustic guitars.... If you were totally maxed out on saddle height and the strings were sitting at 0.700" while your Low E action was 0.064"... then you would go reset the neck. Keep working on it. John

Author:	Heath Blair [ Sun Oct 25, 2009 12:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: setup issues
thanks so much to everyone who has hung there with me on this one. i ended up contracting the H1N1 virus this last week and have been/still am pretty thrashed. with a 2 year old and a wife that is 9 months pregnant in the house, it was pretty scary actually. as soon as i get to feeling better i will get a new saddle made and see where that takes me. thanks again.

Author:	tim88 [ Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: setup issues
Was fine tuning the setup on my new one and thought I would bump this back up for some of the new members. Really good link to Bryan Kimsey's site and just good overall info. Small problem I have found with the search function is it won't search 3 letter words or smaller. So if you try to search for nut or "set up" it won't work. You have to put in setup as one word to get any results.

Author:	Jeffrey L. Suits [ Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:02 am ]
Post subject:	Re: setup issues
Mark Groza wrote: I level my frets with a piece of 1/2"u-channel and self stick sandpaper.It will fit around each string and allow you to level the frets while strung.But first you must get the neck strait with the truss rod first. Yup, me too! Thank you, Rick Turner, Bishop Cochran...