Official Luthiers Forum! :: View topic - French polish over stain or dye?

Thanks everyone for the feedback.

In thinking about this further, I guess I asked my question wrong. I realize now what I should have perhaps posed is this. I would like to take an african mahogany guitar and finish it so that it looks like an aged honduran mahogany guitar.

if you were going to do this using french polish as a technique, what would you do to get a good looking darker hue?

If I put dye in the french polish, it's going to cover my white rosette and darken that too.

So, even if I do the french polish, how do I grain fill with pumice and not get white streaks? I get it that I will have to put something in there, but it should match the wood. I'm wondering specifically what product or item color will give me the best result to match the wood I'm using.

Wow!!! That looks great Martin! [clap]

I'll bet you are satisfied. Looks like you sure put some time into it.

Author:	enalnitram [ Sun Nov 08, 2009 9:10 pm ]
Post subject:	French polish over stain or dye?
hi all, I'm working on my second guitar. my first was finished by Joe White. I'd like to try to finish the second. I'm a pretty patient, and methodical person, and I've been told I should try my hand at french polish. this guitar will be an all mahogany 00. I've looked at a lot of pictures of old 00's and they appear quite dark. darker even, than it seems to me that they would be only with age. I don't want to shade it all the way to what some of the darker examples I've seen have looked like. But I think I would like to darken it some. the guitar will have rosewood binding. I don't want it to be too light, so that there is alot of contrast between the body and the binding. Here's an example that I do like the looks of. a 1935 00-17. I would like to make mine perhaps a half-a-shade lighter than this one. http://www.vintageamericanguitar.com/im ... Detail.jpg http://www.vintageamericanguitar.com/im ... 7-Back.jpg And here's what I'm working with (excellent stuff, provided by John Hall!) Back http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_En-9Zy8jJW8/S ... G_2812.JPG Sides http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_En-9Zy8jJW8/S ... G_2807.JPG Top http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_En-9Zy8jJW8/S ... G_2802.JPG Can I dye or stain, and then french polish over that? would using dark shellac give me what I'm going for? what should I use?

Author:	Pat Foster [ Sun Nov 08, 2009 11:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: French polish over stain or dye?
Martin, Here's one I completed recently with FP over Behlen's Rockhard varnish with no additional dye or stain. The varnish has quite a bit of goldish tone itself. Attachment: l3.jpg You can get a wonderful, deep effect using dark shellac. I much prefer it to staining. Pat

Author:	runamuck [ Sun Nov 08, 2009 11:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: French polish over stain or dye?
Yes, you can FP over both an oil stain and analine dye. If you do want it darker I would strongly recommend using analine dye because the color is much more transparent; oil stains are made of suspended pigment usually in a linseed oil carrier that obscures the beauty of the wood. There are several types of analine dye and I would suggest you use the type which is dissolved in water because it is color fast whereas dye disolved in alcohol will tend to fade when exposed to UV light. Make sure that before dying the instrument you dampen the wood to raise the grain and then lightly sand it.

Author:	JohnAbercrombie [ Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:44 am ]
Post subject:	Re: French polish over stain or dye?
Martin- I believe the dark mahogany color in 50s-60s (and later?) commercial instruments is partly due to the (usually black) oil based pore filler used. I had a 60s Gibson LG1 which had black pore filler, and the b+s looked a lot like the 'vintage' guitar pics you've posted. So you should definitely do some experiments with your offcuts to see what the combination of filler (colored paste or clear epoxy, for example) and stain/topcoats will provide. I once made the mistake of using very dark pore filler on a koa guitar- the result was quite distracting. the eye is led to the dark 'pits' rather than to the overall flowing grain pattern. Traditionally, chemical reactions (with permaganates or dichromates) were used to darken mahogany, but these chemicals are hard to get and are dangerous if you are not careful. Also, this type of 'staining' can be difficult to control. Staining is something I've never gotten the 'hang' of. If I am spraying colored lacquer, it's a bit easier to control the color, but then too-thick lacquer becomes the danger- though that didn't bother the folks who lacquered my 60s Gibson- they really laid it on! Cheers John

Author:	enalnitram [ Tue Nov 10, 2009 10:32 am ]
Post subject:	Re: French polish over stain or dye?
Thanks everyone for the feedback. In thinking about this further, I guess I asked my question wrong. I realize now what I should have perhaps posed is this. I would like to take an african mahogany guitar and finish it so that it looks like an aged honduran mahogany guitar. if you were going to do this using french polish as a technique, what would you do to get a good looking darker hue? If I put dye in the french polish, it's going to cover my white rosette and darken that too.

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Author:	runamuck [ Tue Nov 10, 2009 10:59 am ]
Post subject:	Re: French polish over stain or dye?
enalnitram wrote: Thanks everyone for the feedback. In thinking about this further, I guess I asked my question wrong. I realize now what I should have perhaps posed is this. I would like to take an african mahogany guitar and finish it so that it looks like an aged honduran mahogany guitar. if you were going to do this using french polish as a technique, what would you do to get a good looking darker hue? If I put dye in the french polish, it's going to cover my white rosette and darken that too. When you put dye in the finish, the color will scratch off: it's not a good idea. Just dye the guitar, if you'de like, before the finish.

Author:	the Padma [ Tue Nov 10, 2009 11:40 am ]
Post subject:	Re: French polish over stain or dye?
Well there is stuff that sits on the wood and reflects light..laquers and polyies and the like. Then there is stuff that penetrates the wood and captures the light inside the grain...oils. some varnishes and french polish. Is same with colouring the wood. Stains are basicaly particles in suspension and in reality are putting a film on the wood, yes with some penitration into the fiber. Dies are pigments in solution as such they penitrate the wood fibers. So if you wanna go do a fr polish is best to die the wood not stain it. AS you will have light penetrating into the fiber producing the fire in the wood uninhibited by a film of particles that staning leaves behind. This distinction is suttle and most cant tell the difference, and have bought into the BS about "stuff" on the wood...but once true "fire in the wood" produced by fr polish / oil finish has been pointed out as compaired to stuff sitting on the surface...well dude is like $5 rot gut compaired to a $100 bottle. blessings the Padma

Author:	enalnitram [ Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:27 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: French polish over stain or dye?
thanks again for responses. so I think I get it now, I need to dye the wood before I apply french polish, just like runamuck said before. does anyone have ideas about specifically which dye, and which color or shade will give me the effect I desire? also, specifically, what steps are going to work for me? what happens if I dye the wood, then do the typical pumice pore fill on top of that?

Author:	JohnAbercrombie [ Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: French polish over stain or dye?
Martin- One problem with trying to 'duplicate' the look of the older guitar in the pic is that the wood you are using seems to be quite different in character. Your wood seems (it's a bit hard to tell from the pictures) to have a 'rowed' or interlocking grain pattern like Sapele, but the older guitar has very 'plain' mahogany in comparison. I agree with Padma that you will lose a lot of the 'fire' that the interlocking grain will produce if you use a pigment stain or allow any of the colored filler to remain on the surface. Some of the dyes can be sprayed on using very thin lacquer or shellac as a vehicle. If you don't have a spray setup, the Preval bottles and propellant canisters do a reasonably good job- I used them to finish a lacquered guitar, though the expense convinced me to buy a compressor and gun shortly afterward. I've used the Color-FX dyes and they are very intense and controllable, even in my hands....http://www.woodessence.com/dyesdefault.html I'm not a very skilled finisher and I've learned that it's easiest for me to just let the wood show its natural color- dark wood, dark guitar, etc. Pumice (which I was taught should be tinted with dry color for filling darker wood) fills by a combination of the pumice itself and particles of wood abraded during the process. So you wold likely abrade away some of your dyed wood- again, experiment to get the answer. There's no substitute for experimentation with the wood at hand- collect those offcuts (or get another piece of similar mahogany) and try out a few different finishing combinations before you start on the guitar. I've still got that koa guitar I mentioned in my first post, and every time I pick it up I wish I'd taken more time to experiment before I dipped into that can of black filler. Cheers John

Author:	enalnitram [ Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: French polish over stain or dye?
Thanks, excellent advice. Thanks for that link, too.

Author:	the Padma [ Tue Nov 10, 2009 2:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: French polish over stain or dye?
Me understand dying for special effects...ie sunbursts. And me understand dying for colour "defects" as in sap wood or streeks in an ebony fret board. BUt me just dont get the "silk purse from the sows ear" of making it look like what it ain't and then living with the fantacy...just ain't real to me. blessings the Padma

Author:	enalnitram [ Wed Nov 11, 2009 8:34 am ]
Post subject:	Re: French polish over stain or dye?
Padma, I think I see your point, but disagree with it. So I'll shift away from the "what" for a moment, and go over to the realm of "why." There isn't much that could be more of a wood fantasy than a sunburst top. It isn't what wood is. It shouldn't be real to you either. So why advocate for it? Sunburst is more fantastical than what I'm thinking about doing. Wood doesn't even look like sunburst. But wood does come in different shades.

Author:	the Padma [ Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:33 am ]
Post subject:	Re: French polish over stain or dye?
You may dissagree and me accord you that privilage...but you really do get the point...a sunburst, a splattered paint job, any effect ...no matter... is a three dollar bill...like nobody trying to pass it of for what it aint. What it is is obvious and hence valid. Now is say insencio, died black to look like ABW obvious.? Is it honest? Or is it that $3 bill disguesed to looks like a $50. Right. Now don't get me wrong here, me gotts no problems using whatever treatment is needed to the wood to enhance it...even sparklies and a silk screend cowboy...but me draw the line when is made to look like what it ain't. Me see it akin to a forgery. Now we all gotts our own personal little pet peevs and thats just one of mine. Me can e-mail you the rest of them in Word Pad format ~ is only a 3 gig file. blessings the Padma

Author:	enalnitram [ Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:07 am ]
Post subject:	Re: French polish over stain or dye?
I think I've been convinced. I'm seeing that it's a better idea to accentuate the natural beauty of the wood. I found another pic online to go along with Pat's, of an african mahogany guitar with dark binding. I like it! So, even if I do the french polish, how do I grain fill with pumice and not get white streaks? I get it that I will have to put something in there, but it should match the wood. I'm wondering specifically what product or item color will give me the best result to match the wood I'm using.

Author:	enalnitram [ Mon Jun 28, 2010 1:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: French polish over stain or dye?
Thanks Joe. The quote in my sig comes from an email I received from a semi-well-known luthier/repairman. I took it as a compliment, but it wasn't intended that way!

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Author:	JohnAbercrombie [ Tue Nov 17, 2009 11:58 am ]
Post subject:	Re: French polish over stain or dye?
enalnitram wrote: So, even if I do the french polish, how do I grain fill with pumice and not get white streaks? I get it that I will have to put something in there, but it should match the wood. I'm wondering specifically what product or item color will give me the best result to match the wood I'm using. Martin- Epoxy for pore-filling doesn't add color at all, and works well. There are lots of posts here at the OLF on the topic (if you can get the search engine to co-operate). I usually have WEST epoxy around, and use that, but Z-poxy seems to be very popular for this. I've only filled a couple of IRW guitars with pumice, when I took a building course. The pumice was tinted with some sort of dry artist's pigment to knock down the white color. Pumice does 'grind' some of the wood as well. Cheers John PS- Excellent decision on 'the natural look', IMO.

Author:	Pat Foster [ Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: French polish over stain or dye?
Martin, Here's what I did to get a dark finish on a mahogany neck. Stained with successive applications of a well-diluted red/brown mix of aniline dye . Sealed with shellac which keeps the filler from staining the non-pore parts (which I think gives a muddy look), sealed again, then finish coats. This won't work if you pore fill with pumice. I've used LMI's water-based micro-bead filler with success, though some have had poor results from it. Pat

Author:	enalnitram [ Thu May 13, 2010 10:16 am ]
Post subject:	Re: French polish over stain or dye?
Have I really been working on this guitar for over 6 months? Now that I finally got the binding on, I went back on my own earlier decision (this guitar is for a friend) and resumed the plan to dye/stain it. The plan was to make something a lot like a 30's Martin 00-17. None of those were not stained, as far as I know. So that is the reasoning. So, here's what I concluded after conducting dozens of tests on offcut pieces. It was difficult to get an even application of color using transtint dyes diluted in alcohol. Putting the dye/alcohol mix directly on bare wood does not work at all! Sealing the wood first with shellac helps, but then the color was still difficult to keep even. At first I was concerned about how the transtint-dye-diluted-with-distilled-water warped my test pieces. but I liked the even application, and the ability to use a very weak mixture and apply lots of coats to get a more exact color. So then I tried Minwax stain. Red mahogany. This was very easy to use, and the color went on evenly. I didn't like the oily texture, and was wondering about how shellac would stick to it. A drawback to using it was that once I put it on, it was done. I wanted to be able to tweak the shade once on the guitar, so I went with transtint dyes. So, I proceeded on the guitar using dye diluted with distilled water. I used transtint red mahogany and transtint brown mahogany. similar to the Martin process, I stained with red first, then brown. I applied the 2 dye colors over about 2 days. First I did the back, then the sides. I then used a wet tshirt to wipe the whole thing down to lighten and even out the appearance. The sunlight makes it look a little more red than it really is. But I do like the redness. I was going for a look like this: http://www.guitarrez.com/newpics/sc2900cu.jpg Next I'll do the top. Question. Should I just stain the whole top and then proceed with french polish? When it gets time to glue the FB and bridge, use a razor blade to scrape those areas clean? -OR- ... should I be worried about glue sticking to dye...and mask those areas now?

Author:	enalnitram [ Wed Jun 09, 2010 9:32 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: French polish over stain or dye?
I masked it. I'm pleased with how it's turning out.

Author:	enalnitram [ Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:59 am ]
Post subject:	Re: French polish over stain or dye?
Success. i've been working on the finish of this guitar for over 2 months. i've discovered you have to hit on just the right mixture of wetness, alcohol content, shellac content, shellac cut, amount of oil, and use a new cover each time, to get the surface just right. i'm still not exactly sure how to engineer that result 100%, so i keep trying each night until i get lucky. it's definitely not for everyone. late in the process, I glued the neck on. for the glazing process, I can work on the top, hang it up, then work on the back while the guitar is hanging there, and then do the neck.

Author:	Joe Sustaire [ Mon Jun 28, 2010 12:49 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: French polish over stain or dye?
Martin that turned out beautiful! After seeking all the info you can get, you just have to jump in there and see what happens. You did a great job, Joe ps-- I love your signature line!

Author:	Darryl Young [ Mon Jun 28, 2010 9:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: French polish over stain or dye?
Wow!!! That looks great Martin! I'll bet you are satisfied. Looks like you sure put some time into it.

Author:	enalnitram [ Mon Jun 28, 2010 10:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: French polish over stain or dye?
Darryl Young wrote: Wow!!! That looks great Martin! I'll bet you are satisfied. Looks like you sure put some time into it. Thanks! After this epic first time, I wasn't sure how long it would be before I felt like doing another finish. But then my wife informed me that at least the next dozen are going to go to Joe...