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Set up questions. Please help.
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Author:  Blain [ Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Set up questions. Please help.
I'm having a hard time grasping when to do what during the set up. Everything I find on set up seems to already have the nut and saddle shaped. But don't you need to have your frets leveled before you can finish the nut and saddle? Everything that I find also already has the relief set before leveling and so on. Isn't the relief dependent on the final stage of the frets?

I'm getting really confused and would like to know what's the correct order to do all of this from shaping the nut, shaping the saddle, leveling the frets, crowning the frets and setting the relief?

By the way. My saddle is square on top as I was planning to set everything up and then intonate leaving me a wide saddle to work with. So how will that fit into the picture?
Author:  Hesh [ Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Set up questions. Please help.
"But don't you need to have your frets leveled before you can finish the nut and saddle? Everything that I find also already has the relief set before leveling and so on. Isn't the relief dependent on the final stage of the frets?"

Great set-ups are an art and you would be very surprised at how many set-ups are not nearly as close to being great as they should be.... I am saying this because when I used to build my guitars I viewed set-up as several additional hours to throw it all together..... Not so....

Your fret job comes before you make a nut and saddle. Adjust the rod for the straightest neck possible and if you didn't fret it yet, and I don't fret prior to installing the board, fret the guitar. Readjust the rod to level the neck and then level and crown your frets. Be sure that your neck geometry is correct too before fretting in case you need to reset the neck.

Now you have a perfectly straight neck with level, crowned frets. Now you make your nut and saddle. Remember that the nut slots are a function of dressed, level frets so the fretting comes first.

Intonation is a whole additional question and post and also one of the last things that you do so go ahead and fret, level, crown, make a nut (and don't feel bad if you have to make the nut over a few times, everyone does when learning, some folks have to make 50 nuts until they go nuts.... :D ).

Good luck and PM me with any questions if you want to.
Author:  Sondre [ Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Set up questions. Please help.
The way I do it:
-level frets
-crown frets
-make nut
-install saddle
-put on strings
-set relief
-fine adjust saddle height
Author:  Rod True [ Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Set up questions. Please help.
Some folks like to level the frets with the string tension on. Look at the Stew Mac neck jig for this induced tension (without the strings on).

On a new build, many will level the frets before making the nut. This is what I do. Level the board, install frets, bevel the fret ends, then level the frets. Then I make the nut, getting the string height close but not final. Then I make the saddle but leave it noticably high. Then I check the relief and set that (truss rod). Then I set the height at the nut, then the saddle height and round over the edges of the saddle just a hair. I let that sit for a week or so and then do check the relief, string height at the nut, action (saddle height) then the intonation.

I'm sure I'm "wrong" somewhere in my thinking, but that's where I'm at right now.
Author:  StevenWheeler [ Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Set up questions. Please help.
Blain,

Yes, you need your frets leveled before you finish the nut and saddle. You can, however, shape the nut and saddle at any time, you just leave them tall. Your fret board should be set as flat as possible, level and crown the frets, install roughed in saddle and nut and then string it up. Now you can set the relief (loosen those strings so as not to damage the truss rod), get the string hight at the nut close but a little high, set the 12th fret action with the saddle the finalize the nut hight.
Now you can take the cut off piece of the B string and place it between the saddle and the string to set intonation. Move the B string piece fore and aft to find the correct break point for each string and file the saddle to that shape.

Steve
Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Set up questions. Please help.
I'd caution about being overly enthusiastic about 'levelling and crowning frets'.
When I built my first guitars 30+ yrs ago the standard advice was to take a large (flat) file and file the frets until all the tops were 'flattened a bit' and then re-crown with a crowning file and polish with fine sandpaper. [xx(] [xx(] As a beginner,I did a lot of damage with that big file and LMI crowning file!
Nowadays, I pay a lot more attention to getting the fingerboard 'right' before fretting. (Learned this from Sergei deJonge in his class; also Mario Proulx has emphasized this online.)
When I install frets I check every one with the 'Fret Rocker' from Stewmac, and re-seat or replace frets as I go.
Usually, only a polish- fine W&D paper, light buff- is necessary to get things 'right'.
I'm no setup expert, so heed the advice of others, but 'it works for me' as they say.
You can always go to work 'dressing and crowning' later if necessary.

And as Hesh says- when learning (I still am) don't be afraid to make several nuts/saddles. Best to have some spares, or get some Corian offcuts for doing practice nuts/saddles, also shims,etc. (If you cut a nut slot too deep fix it with CA and bone dust or baking soda.) When you have everything working right, then you can make up the 'good' saddle & nut and shine them up.
That's the real skill level showing when you watch a pro- they take one nut blank, one saddle blank, make 'em - not so easy as it looks!!

Cheers
John
Author:  Rick Davis [ Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Set up questions. Please help.
Pretty much everyone does it as I do, but perhaps with a couple of extra steps.

On a new guitar or a refret, start by truing the fingerboard. Make sure the truss rod has some tension on it. Now fret. Again, adjust rod for best straightness. Level frets, polish 'em, do the ends. Make them as pretty as you can!

Now you can install the rough nut and saddle (no glue!), and string up the high and low E's with enough tension to hold them against the nut. Mark your preferred locations, slide the strings off the nut, and file starter slots -- usually just nicks will hold them in place. Measure the distance between the strings with calipers. Subtract the total thickness of the four other strings. Divide by 5. That number is the distance between the edges, not the centers, of each string. Set your calipers for that number and lock it in. Install the remaining strings loosely, use the calipers to move each in turn to the correct position, mark and start the slot. I like to work from the outside to the middle, i.e. the two E strings, then the A, then the B, then the D or G, and finally the one remaining. Any error in measurement or placement will be obvious if you check against the calipers. Move the slots as necessary by angling your file. Accuracy counts! Bring everything up to pitch.

By now, the height at the nut should be getting fairly close. Recheck relief and adjust as necessary. Now fret the strings at the third fret and check clearance at the first. You want just a hair of clearance on the trebles, a hair-and-a-half on the bass. Keep filing until you get there. Note that by fretting at the third, you've taken action height out of the picture! It doesn't matter how high the saddle is at this point as long as relief is good.

Now measure action at the 12th on each string. Remove (or add) material from the saddle to adjust. Do whatever intonation adjustment you like or need, make sure the top's smooth and pretty and the bottom dead flat, and re-install.

Before bringing everything up to pitch, slide the nut out, file away excess from the top and polish it up. Add ONE drop of glue and replace it, string it up and voila! You're done in the minimum of time and without trashing your strings by tuning up and down unnecessarily. If you follow the steps in order and work precisely, the action will be right on and the player happy!

Hope that quick outline helps,
Rick
Author:  Jim_H [ Wed Mar 17, 2010 1:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Set up questions. Please help.
Rick Davis wrote:
Pretty much everyone does it as I do, but perhaps with a couple of extra steps.

On a new guitar or a refret, start by truing the fingerboard. Make sure the truss rod has some tension on it. Now fret. Again, adjust rod for best straightness. Level frets, polish 'em, do the ends. Make them as pretty as you can!

Now you can install the rough nut and saddle (no glue!), and string up the high and low E's with enough tension to hold them against the nut. Mark your preferred locations, slide the strings off the nut, and file starter slots -- usually just nicks will hold them in place. Measure the distance between the strings with calipers. Subtract the total thickness of the four other strings. Divide by 5. That number is the distance between the edges, not the centers, of each string. Set your calipers for that number and lock it in. Install the remaining strings loosely, use the calipers to move each in turn to the correct position, mark and start the slot. I like to work from the outside to the middle, i.e. the two E strings, then the A, then the B, then the D or G, and finally the one remaining. Any error in measurement or placement will be obvious if you check against the calipers. Move the slots as necessary by angling your file. Accuracy counts! Bring everything up to pitch.

By now, the height at the nut should be getting fairly close. Recheck relief and adjust as necessary. Now fret the strings at the third fret and check clearance at the first. You want just a hair of clearance on the trebles, a hair-and-a-half on the bass. Keep filing until you get there. Note that by fretting at the third, you've taken action height out of the picture! It doesn't matter how high the saddle is at this point as long as relief is good.

Now measure action at the 12th on each string. Remove (or add) material from the saddle to adjust. Do whatever intonation adjustment you like or need, make sure the top's smooth and pretty and the bottom dead flat, and re-install.

Before bringing everything up to pitch, slide the nut out, file away excess from the top and polish it up. Add ONE drop of glue and replace it, string it up and voila! You're done in the minimum of time and without trashing your strings by tuning up and down unnecessarily. If you follow the steps in order and work precisely, the action will be right on and the player happy!

Hope that quick outline helps,
Rick

Woohoo!

Thanks Rick!

I lost my notes from class. :p I saved this in my notes and printed a copy!
Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Wed Mar 17, 2010 2:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Set up questions. Please help.
Thanks, Rick-
Saved it and printed it, too!

Cheers
John
Author:  Corky Long [ Wed Mar 17, 2010 10:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Set up questions. Please help.
Here's a plug for Kent Everett's CD on setups. (Available at LMI)

It's comprehensive, logical, and repeatable. I really like his approach. If you spend the dough, you won't be sorry.
Author:  SteveSmith [ Wed Mar 17, 2010 10:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Set up questions. Please help.
Second the recommendation on Everett's CD. It helped me to turn a bunch of different tasks I did during setup into an orderly setup process.
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Wed Mar 17, 2010 1:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Set up questions. Please help.
Frets; install rough nut and saddle; string; get relief close; adjust nut; check relief; adjust saddle; fine tune nut if needed; fine tune relief.

This is all pretty standard, except that I come back to relief in between nut and saddle, and again at the end; most instructions say to do it first, but it can be affected by nut and saddle height (which change the strings' leverage), and if you are going for "as low as possible without buzzing" it has to be the final adjustment IMO. I have eliminated a buzz by adding just .001" of relief at the end.

It's rare to not have more back and forth than is in most "standard" instructions if you are doing a fine-tuned setup. One basic idea is that the nut adjust is not affected by the other things, so do it first. Except I find that there is a little mental fatigue after getting it real close, and it can still be improved a bit if you come back to it.
Author:  Blain [ Wed Mar 17, 2010 11:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Set up questions. Please help.
Thank you all for the great responses. This helps a lot!

This is one area that I have found myself doing things almost blind and way out of order. This thread will be a great reference to go back to.

Thank you all again for clearing this up.
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