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| kerfed lining on flamenco http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=26682 |
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| Author: | jlneng [ Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | kerfed lining on flamenco |
Hello all, Are there any advantages sound wise for using spaced single tantelones in kieu of a continuous kerfed lining on a flamenco guitar? Thanks! All opinions welcome...German Spruce top, Spanish Cypress B&S... John |
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| Author: | wbergman [ Wed Mar 24, 2010 5:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: kerfed lining on flamenco |
My belief is that the individual blocks are desireable to fill the gaps where the top or sides are uneven, so you do not have to clamp and distort the top. The top is uneven if you graduate the top prior to installing it. Some makers have a very complex shape to the top that cannot practically be mirrored on the sides. Many builders who use a uniform thickness top, however, use a complex platila, which again is not practical to mirror on the sides, and again the individual blocks solve the problem. If your top is installed with uniform thickness and graduated later (or not at all) and if you prepare the sides against an assembly board (e.g. radius board), then you will not have this stress. Then the blocks are not as important. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Wed Mar 24, 2010 5:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: kerfed lining on flamenco |
Some people, including Somogyi, use little sections of kerfed or reverse kerfed lining, and install them as if they were dentillones. It allows for the variations, but not the lengthy process of cutting and installing individual dentillones. |
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| Author: | Mike Collins [ Thu Mar 25, 2010 4:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: kerfed lining on flamenco |
Are there any advantages sound wise for using spaced single tantelones in kieu of a continuous kerfed lining on a flamenco guitar? NO ! You must have a tight glue joint-NO gaps!! I've made them both ways -OVER 100 OF THEM. Your plate thicknesses ,brace stiffness,and all other very important components are equally important. tentallones-(tentayonays) Mike |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Thu Mar 25, 2010 5:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: kerfed lining on flamenco |
Mike Collins wrote: tentallones-(tentayonays) Mike Not according to Romanillos!  Tentellones was an error attributed to an author who misspelled the word, and it stuck. Originally Dentallones - like dental molding. I misspelled it above, it just didn't stick.
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| Author: | David LaPlante [ Thu Mar 25, 2010 6:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: kerfed lining on flamenco |
I'm not an expert on Flamencos (though I have built a few) but I recently acquired a 1922 Domingo Esteso Flamenco in which he used Dentellones on the top and solid bent (maple I think) linings on the back. Esteso is considered one of the defining makers of the Flamenco guitar along with Hernandez and Barbero. |
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| Author: | jlneng [ Fri Mar 26, 2010 7:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: kerfed lining on flamenco |
Thanks for the feedback. I recently got to play a 1942 Barbero that weighed in at 2 lbs, 6 ounces, that was a tottaly striking instrument, great overtones, punch and growl. I was looking for ways to reduce weight in my cuurent build and was thinking about kerfing as another way to achieve some weight reduction. John |
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| Author: | jlneng [ Fri Mar 26, 2010 7:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: kerfed lining on flamenco |
Thanks David, A friend has a 1932 Esteso that I have played. It is a wonderful instrument! I will have to check the linings next time I see him. John David LaPlante wrote: I'm not an expert on Flamencos (though I have built a few) but
I recently acquired a 1922 Domingo Esteso Flamenco in which he used Dentellones on the top and solid bent (maple I think) linings on the back. Esteso is considered one of the defining makers of the Flamenco guitar along with Hernandez and Barbero. |
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| Author: | jlneng [ Fri Mar 26, 2010 7:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: kerfed lining on flamenco |
Mike Collins wrote: Are there any advantages sound wise for using spaced single tantelones in kieu of a continuous kerfed lining on a flamenco guitar? NO ! You must have a tight glue joint-NO gaps!! I've made them both ways -OVER 100 OF THEM. Your plate thicknesses ,brace stiffness,and all other very important components are equally important. tentallones-(tentayonays) Mike Thanks Mike, I think I will stick with standard continous spruce kerfing. I appreciate the feedback of knowledgable people like yourself. I have a car with squeaks and rattles, that is enough....don't need to build a problem. John |
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| Author: | jlneng [ Fri Mar 26, 2010 7:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: kerfed lining on flamenco |
Hi All, The consensus is in and I will stick with continous kerfed lining, 7 fan braces, UTB,LTB, and 3 back braces, joining strip. I might make my bridge alittle thinner than the last 2. Still will not use a inner bridge plate. My tops have been rather thick about 2.4-2.7mm so I think I will try to go alittle thinner on this on. The german spruce top I have is pretty stiff. Maybe shoot for 2mm - 2.4mm. Same goes for cypess B&S. John |
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| Author: | Mike Collins [ Fri Mar 26, 2010 1:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: kerfed lining on flamenco |
John; check out the Brune' OLF plan of a 51 Barbero. It makes a killer guitar. Thicker top & back then most other "Flamencos" Dentellones it is Waddy & David. Wow 30 + years calling them the wrong name.  mc |
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| Author: | jlneng [ Fri Mar 26, 2010 2:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: kerfed lining on flamenco |
Mike Collins wrote: John; check out the Brune' OLF plan of a 51 Barbero. It makes a killer guitar. Thicker top & back then most other "Flamencos" Dentellones it is Waddy & David. Wow 30 + years calling them the wrong name. mc Thanks Mike, I will order the plan, it will be fun to compare my friends 42 Barbero to Richard's plan. The sound from the Barbero is frighteningly great. I have never heard anything like it. The strings that were on it were pretty worn out at the time too. John |
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| Author: | Alexandru Marian [ Fri Mar 26, 2010 4:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: kerfed lining on flamenco |
Waddy, so Somogyi does it like that? Great minds.... For my last 3 guitars I've been cutting the strip for the top in short 3-4 teeth sections, enough to be able to easily press in using hide glue. For the back I only cut in 3 sections making sure the joints are off soundhole sight and use fish glue. Dentellones is a term used in architecture for decorations resembling a row of teeth, such as in these pics. Note that the root dent- is from latin/spanish for tooth, same as in English there is "dental" and such. Although I heard an explanation trying to prove the T variant is correct, I don't think the etymology was convincing.   
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| Author: | wbergman [ Fri Mar 26, 2010 6:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: kerfed lining on flamenco |
There are many languages derived from Latin which are not understandable to speakers of other Latin derived languages. Words evolve with time by accidental change and continued use of the changed forms. This is normal. We are stuck with tentalons and there is nothing wrong with that--but we can have fun with the discussion. I searched the web for both forms, and found many "t" but the only "d" I found were Spanish articles on dental restoration. Now if we could only get rid of "double" when we are really refering to "laminated". |
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| Author: | Colin North [ Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: kerfed lining on flamenco |
wbergman wrote: Now if we could only get rid of "double" when we are really refering to "laminated". As opposed to triple or multiple? |
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