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| Author: | jlneng [ Fri Mar 26, 2010 8:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Double tops |
As I have never had the opportunity to play a double top guitar with either a double back or top, what is making this such a big trend in classical guitar construction? Having heard so many howling great classicals with standard construction by luthiers like Bob Ruck, Domingo Esteso, Jose Ramirez, and others, I don't understand what the big deal is. I never thought that John Williams guitar put out a BIG sound even knowing it was a double top(he is an exquisite player though). I have yet to hear a classical or flamenco player in my life who has not used a PA for a formal concert so I guess it is not about increased volume. Please educate the skeptic. THanks, John |
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| Author: | Jim Watts [ Fri Mar 26, 2010 8:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Double tops |
John, John Williams is know for playing a Smallman guitar, which is not a double top but a very thin top supported by a lattice structure. David Russel does play a double tops however. I've only built double tops on steel strings so I'm a little out of my field here, but typically you hoping for more volume and better dynamic range. |
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| Author: | Brock Poling [ Fri Mar 26, 2010 8:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Double tops |
Well... I can tell you that in small steel strings it is pretty remarkable how big the sound is on a DT. I think the jury is still out about the quality of the sound, but it can pump out the volume. |
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| Author: | Mike Lindstrom [ Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Double tops |
I heard they go to eleven, especially if they're black. |
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| Author: | Bobby M [ Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:08 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Double tops |
Mike Lindstrom wrote: I heard they go to eleven, especially if they're black. "and eleven is that much louder than ten..." |
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| Author: | Gary L [ Sat Mar 27, 2010 3:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Double tops |
As a builder of both double top (wood/Nomex) and conventional top classicals, I'll take a shot at answering John's question. Comparing my own instruments, I find that the double top models are overall more responsive. "Race cars" is a term that concert guitarists frequently tell me when playing these guitars. Of course, whether double or conventional top, responsiveness is the operative word in classical guitars, i.e. the guitar is a tool that will do whatever the performer asks of it, whether a matter of tonal color or dynamic range. Although increased power is what gets talked about most about double tops, I feel the criterion for what constitutes an "improvement" in a guitar is ultimately whether the player can play more expressively on it. Some of the characteristics that I have observed in the double tops I build that might facilitate this are: 1. Extended dynamic range on both ends. Can be played with more clarity and projection both piano and forte. 2. Articulation and details, particularly in the treble, are more easily heard in a hall. 3. It requires less effort in the right hand to get an equivalent amount of output. One benefit for example, is that it's easier to get a melodic line to sing, and the player can spend more effort concentrating on making music than making sound. 4. There is very good evenness across the range, and the notes on the first string are exceptionally strong all the way to the 19th/20th fret. 5. Double tops don't necessarily have to sacrifice a good tonal palette for increased resposiveness. While exhibiting both double- and conventional-topped guitars at last year's GFA convention, I found the double top model attracted the most attention across a broad spectrum of players with varying levels of skill. The interesting thing to me was that the highly skilled players, particularly those with an excellent right hand, benefitted from the attributes of the double top, whereas the players of low skill sounded worse on it. The reason is clear, just as it probably is with a good Romanillos: the double top is so responsive that it magnifies great technique just as much as it magnifies poor technique. Aside from cost, this is why I don't drive a formula one around town! I agree with Filippo that just like their conventional top counterparts, the voice of double top guitars varies widely depending on design and maker. As a player I love playing both conventional and double tops, and I leave it to the individual player to decide what works best for him or her. |
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| Author: | jlneng [ Sun Mar 28, 2010 8:03 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Double tops |
Thanks for the thoughtful replies. I have read little about double tops being built for flamenco, but from what I have read here, it may be appropriate if the decay is fast enough. Any thoughts on the double top for a falmenco guitar? I doubt that I will see any double tops around here in WI but I might venture to Brunes' shop in IL to check one out next time I see one listed in his inventory. John |
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| Author: | jncllc [ Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Double tops |
I have a question. I've heard of dbl. tops but have never seen one. What is the basic concept/construction? |
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| Author: | Jim Watts [ Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Double tops |
John, its typically a honeycomb sandwich panel. Example; spruce, nomex honeycomb, spruce. Different people use different amounts of honeycomb. Here's a picture the way I do mine http://jameswattsguitars.com/double%20top.htm I appologize for sending you to my web site, but I just had a computer crash and I don't have my pictures migrated over to the new one. |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Double tops |
Jim Watts wrote: John, its typically a honeycomb sandwich panel. Example; spruce, nomex honeycomb, spruce. Different people use different amounts of honeycomb. Here's a picture the way I do mine http://jameswattsguitars.com/double%20top.htm I appologize for sending you to my web site, but I just had a computer crash and I don't have my pictures migrated over to the new one. Hey Jim do you rout out the cavities for the nomex into the top then lay another thin spruce layer to close the whole thing off? |
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| Author: | Jim Watts [ Mon Mar 29, 2010 2:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Double tops |
Yes, I route out the pockets in one skin , then fit the core. The skin is held down to a flat plate with vacuum while I route the pockets, this helps to ensure a even flat pocket. jim |
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