Official Luthiers Forum!
http://luthiersforum.com/forum/

Marquetry and Glue
http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=27175		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Marquetry and Glue
I am building up some colored veneers (LMI) to produce a special purfling and rosette filler. Requires 4 colors. the LMI veneers are probably not water resistant (guess, and if I am wrong, let me now). So I want to use a non-waterbased glue. What about epoxy? It should bend when heated. Glue suggestions are welcomed!

BTW, I have been researching vacuum infusion (Joe Woodworker). The setup is cool, but would probably take 10 guitars to pay for itself, including the Transtint dyes. Still, it looks fun. Anybody tried it?
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Marquetry and Glue
I've used black and green LMI veneers with fish glue no problems. I can't think of a better glue for marquetry. Huge open time, resists to heat very well. No colored veneer should not be affected by water if it is decent quality....
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Marquetry and Glue
I did not realize fish glue was not water based. BTW, does it smell fishy? (not a big fan of that smell, the z-poxy comes close to that as well... yuk, and I like to fish!)

Thanks for the tip.

So, you think LMI's stuff is decent? Kind of late, I already ordered it. But the price has convinved me to do my own in the future.

Mike
Author:  Dave Stewart [ Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Marquetry and Glue
Don't know if it helps, but back when I used to fool with these types of decorative boxes, I glued everything (including making up inlay lines) with slightly diluted white PVA.
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Marquetry and Glue
Well it is water based, I was just saying that water should not be a problem when doing marquetry. If the veneer doesn't work with water, then it is poor quality.

It does not smell fishy at all. They put a substance that gives a very slight smell..and it smells like glue :) Nicer than HHG which is quite OK on its own. What I did try and hated once though was a cheaper variety of pearl glue (probably made from bones not hides). It really stinks.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Marquetry and Glue
OK, got it. Have to admit that I never wanted to try it since I thought it might smell fishy. Dave, I have been thinking of taking a box making course. I bet one learns a lot of things that are useful down the road. Nice box!

Mike
Author:  Dave Stewart [ Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Marquetry and Glue
Thanks Mike. If your interested, I highly recommend checking out the great work of Andrew Crawford ... http://www.fine-boxes.com/. I bought his book (Fine Decorative Wood Boxes) about 10 yrs ago & fell in love with his work..... built a dozen or more. Lots of good info on making coloured lines, french polishing, veneering etc! (He runs courses in Shropshire if you're really into it laughing6-hehe )
Author:  Allen McFarlen [ Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Marquetry and Glue
Marquetry is traditionally done with hide glue. Have a look at all the fabulous antique furniture that is adorned with marquetry. No epoxies and pva's back then.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Marquetry and Glue
Allen McFarlen wrote:
...No epoxies and pva's back then.


Maybe that is why they did not use them? :mrgreen:

Just kidding. ;) But as slow as I am, I do not think I am going to try and hot glue 10+ pieces of 36" long veneer (expensive veneer).

Mike
Author:  Dave Fifield [ Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Marquetry and Glue
I do tons of marquetry using thin veneers of all types (see some of my work here), and I've always used Titebond Original glue. As long as you put the glue on the substrate and not on the veneer and then vacuum press the veneers onto it, you will have no problems. If you put Titebond/AR glue on the veneer it will warp, curl, shrink, change shape, etc. and cause you all kinds of grief. If you're glueing up a bunch of veneers to make purfling with a repeated pattern (IMO this is parquetry, not marquetry) then you will need to use a two-part (non water based) glue (here are some).

Cheers,
Dave F.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Tue Apr 27, 2010 6:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Marquetry and Glue
Parqetry? I had no idea! Yes, that is what I will be doing. Another good reason to avoid water based. I have had that problem with simpler projects. Other than epoxy, could you please name some two part glues? Or did you mean epoxy?
Maybe someone should inform LMI and SM of the difference in terms! :-)
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Marquetry and Glue
Bump, need an answer
Author:  Dave Fifield [ Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Marquetry and Glue
Hi Mike,

I was waiting for an answer to the question from one of my marquetry buddies who I know uses the 2-part modified urea resin formaldehyde stuff a lot. It's not an epoxy. Here's what he said:

"Unibond 800 is the industry standard. It gives a rigid joint, fills small gaps and has a good long open time for gluing up complex assemblies. Disadvantages are it dries slowly (like 8hrs depending on temp which needs to be at least up in the 70s), you have to mix it, the smallest quantity is 1/2 gal size and it has a short (6mo) shelf life. The Sawdust Shop carries it sometimes (that's a local woodworking store here in CA - i'm sure I've see it at Woodcraft too).

Here’s a link with further info"

This is the stuff that David Marks uses for his laminated bent furniture. Hope this helps!

Cheers,
Dave Fifield
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Thu Apr 29, 2010 10:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Marquetry and Glue
From what I can tell, the dyes are probably Transtint. These dyes can be diluted with standard solvents or water. So I would agree that they most likely did it with solvent. I will just build some kind of holding frame that keeps it all flat and square while the glue dries. Todd, would a light coat of sealing shellac be a bad idea from a glueing point of view? (Tite Bond)

Mike
Author:  Laurent Brondel [ Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Marquetry and Glue
A lot of overthinking here.
Any finish on a wood surface that will be glued is a no-no.
Rip a couple of 3/4" MDF or plywood boards 6" x 36" (or whatever dimension you need) to use as cauls, get a bunch of 2" spring clamps and just do it.
I make all my purfling stock and have used TB1, TB2, Gorilla wood glue and HHG without any problem. Just slightly wet the side that doesn't get glue with a damp rag to minimize warping and wait at least overnight to unclamp, or just before you resaw your stock in small strips. A small veneer roller is a must to apply the glue, and the fastest I know. Be fast, and organised.
If a purf sheet starts to warp, clamp it in your cauls again a couple of hours before resawing, it will be fine. Doing 3 layers always warps less than 2.
The urea resin formaldehyde is a bad idea: it's an excellent glue but not for this application. Besides the long curing time, it leaves a visible dark glue line. It will be an eyesore on maple, holly and any coloured purfs. Also it cures crystal hard and could present a problem bending the strips.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Marquetry and Glue
Perhaps overthinking it. The veneers are expensive. So, I just want to start off on right foot. I do have a glue spreader... all set. Thanks!

BTW, I make way fewer mistakes when I over think things, so its a good thing there is a shipping time involved. ;)

Mike
Author:  TimAllen [ Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Marquetry and Glue
If you finish your thinking before the shipment arrives, you could take a couple minutes getting your cauls ready. Glue leaking out of edges, or being pressed right through the veneer, can glue the work to your cauls. I like to cover my cauls with cheapo thin plastic packaging tape from the office supply store. I've never had any glue stick to it, and I've used this tape with epoxy, fish glue, AR, PU, etc.
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Marquetry and Glue
One answer is Titebond II. Another is liquid hide glue.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Marquetry and Glue
TimAllen wrote:
I like to cover my cauls with cheapo thin plastic packaging tape from the office supply store. I've never had any glue stick to it, and I've used this tape with epoxy, fish glue, AR, PU, etc.



So simple, so smart. Never thought about doing that. Thank you! (I have used parchment paper, but your idea is better)

Mike
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Sat May 01, 2010 7:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Marquetry and Glue
For fish glue I cover the cauls in paper sticky tape (same kind I use for binding) as it allows the moisture to pass through. With scotch tape you might have to wait for long days until it cures.
Author:  TimAllen [ Sat May 01, 2010 9:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Marquetry and Glue
Alexandru, if paper tape is working for you to keep your cauls from getting stuck, of course keep doing it!

I tend to use the same cauls for different gluing tasks that call for different glues, just because it is more convenient. With plastic-covered cauls fish glue has always dried overnight for me. Using fish glue, I recently glued a layer of .035 walnut to a substrate of .05 walnut; the piece was 5" wide. The glue set hard overnight.

I really like fish glue! No odor or fumes, and no extra work creating warm environments and heated workpieces. I even used it to glue an ivory on to a piano key a couple of months ago. With hide glue, which is the traditionally "right" way to do it, you have to take the key off and use a heated caul. If this key keeps holding, it'll be great. My fingers are crossed. It's making my piano-playing a little awkward, though...
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Sun May 02, 2010 1:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Marquetry and Glue
I was actually talking about marquetry, I did 3x8 and 7x8 logs. The log is surrounded by cauls from all sides. Otherwise for veneer stacks with 2 cauls there is no problem with plastic covering, I agree. The cauls get stuck but it is easy to split it and then clean the paper off.
Page 1 of 1 All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/