Same here, I do braces, linings and other quick tasks with hide and the slow ones like closing the box and the FB with fish. I might say fish makes for a somewhat tougher bond, while hide is more brittle. Anyway I love them both
| Official Luthiers Forum! http://luthiersforum.com/forum/ |
|
| Hide glue vs. fish glue http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=28109 |
Page 1 of 1 |
| Author: | JSDenvir [ Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Hide glue vs. fish glue |
I'm sure this has been discussed before, but the search function doesn't seem to be working at the moment. Is there an appreciable difference between hide and fish glue in terms of efficacy? And is there a fish glue you'd recommend? Thanks in advance. Steve |
|
| Author: | Carey [ Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hide glue vs. fish glue |
In general, I like the long open time of fish glue, myself. When the commonly used one-part glues grab and are then reset there is a real loss of bond strength.. fish glue tacks more slowly, so there is less of an issue in that respect. More a preference than superiority. As for moisture resistance, I wonder if there's a significant difference between fish and hide glue- my own testing is inconclusive. |
|
| Author: | JJ Donohue [ Wed Jul 07, 2010 8:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hide glue vs. fish glue |
I use both 192 gram strength HHG and Norland FG. In qualitative testing that I did over a year ago, I found that both glues tear wood when their joints are broken. FG takes about 24 hours to attain full strength while HHG takes about half the time. I have been progressively using FG for more operations as I become more familiar and confident with its performance. Currently, I attach bindings and glue tops and backs with FG. Gone are the Chinese Fire Drill days of trying to apply HHG and get the plates on the rims and clamped within 60 seconds. I was able to do this effectively for years but have come to enjoy the more leisurely pace of FG for the past 2 years. I still use HHG for gluing braces, bridges, etc. and don't see that changing since I like working with HHG and have a 50 year supply of granules from the same lot. One characteristic that I found with FG that I feel is important: On Norland's label it clearly states to "Stir Before Using". I found this to be a significant factor when I did my testing. As a result, I have a rigid protocol that I perform when I open a quart container. I mindlessly invert and roll the unopened container slowly back and forth for 30 to 60 minutes...like during a TV news show. Next I open the container and stir the contents for 15 minutes and then transfer a working 2 oz amount into a squeeze bottle. That amount can last me anywhere from 2-4 weeks. When not in use, it is refrigerated. The remaining amount is always refrigerated. The benefit of this is that the viscosity of the cold glue becomes so high that solids are kept in suspension and can't settle out. It might take a few hours for the quart to warm and enable subsequent transfers but it's worth the effort. Failure to be mindful of this stirring could seriously affect joint strength! There is no labeled expiration date on Norland's container. So far, I have used the glue for 3 years with no apparent change in viscosity or bond strength. Many thanks to David Collins for introducing me to Fish Glue! I miss his contributions. |
|
| Author: | Alexandru Marian [ Wed Jul 07, 2010 8:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hide glue vs. fish glue |
Same here, I do braces, linings and other quick tasks with hide and the slow ones like closing the box and the FB with fish. I might say fish makes for a somewhat tougher bond, while hide is more brittle. Anyway I love them both
|
|
| Author: | Fred Tellier [ Wed Jul 07, 2010 8:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hide glue vs. fish glue |
Fish glue is much stickier if you get it on the fingers than HHG but with both I keep a damp towel handy to wipe off the glue. I clean up both with hot water, I dip a piece of paper towel in the glue pot water and wipe the squeeze out, thus I heat my glue pot when Fish glue. If the glue on the fingers is not removed with the towel well enough I also dip it in the glue pot for more aggressive wiping. The 1st time I used Fish glue I had it all over me and made a bit of a mess. By the way hot water also will help clean Fish and HHG after it has cured. Fred |
|
| Author: | Zach Ehley [ Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hide glue vs. fish glue |
Similar to some that have responded already, I use HHG for braces, blocks and bridges; then FG for lining, tops and backs. I use LMI white for binding but have thought about switching to FG. JJs comments are reassuring and may give it a try on the next one. I use those small disposable brushes to brush it on in a nice even coat. I rarely need to do any significant cleanup. I love the open time and don't build at a pace that the long clamp and dry time are much of an issue. I usually have something else i can do in that time. I got a 500ml bottle from Lee Valley that I keep in the fridge. I transfer a small amount into a small bottle so I'm not heating and cooling the big bottle all the time. Their instructions state 2 year shelf life. I assume thats at room temp. Mine is older that that and have seen to problems or changes to it. |
|
| Author: | Joe Sustaire [ Wed Jul 07, 2010 1:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hide glue vs. fish glue |
Very timely as I closed two boxes about a week ago using fish glue. I had bound the back and routed the channels for the top purf and binding, came back the next day and had seams opening up. Another box that I was replacing the back on and had glued on with fish glue was opening up also. This was my first time to use fish glue and I got it from Olde Mill, quart can, no idea who their source was. Now there were no directions about stirring on the can and after reading JJ's post this may be the problem, it's also been warm and humid here, but needless to say it's very frustrating. Had to open them up, re-sand and close with titebond. Joe |
|
| Author: | Alexandru Marian [ Wed Jul 07, 2010 2:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hide glue vs. fish glue |
Joe, ouch, that sounds like a bad glue to me. Maybe buy a fresh bottle from LV and give it another chance. |
|
| Author: | SteveSmith [ Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hide glue vs. fish glue |
I use the fish glue from Lee Valley. I believe it's Norlands. I've never bothered to shake or stir it although perhaps I should. I've glued lots of joints with it and not had even one problem. |
|
| Author: | Mike Collins [ Wed Jul 07, 2010 5:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hide glue vs. fish glue |
[quote="Todd Stock"]One other thing...fish is much more sensitive to clamping pressure and duration of clamping than hide. In my testing, minimum time in clamps was twice that of hide, and I saw frequent failures in the glue line with anything less than a fully clamped joint (overlapping pressure fields from clamps) and 4 hours drying. This suggests that clamping methodology is important, and users should understand how clamp forces propagate. /quote] I never unclamp even a Epoxy joint in less then 4 hours. Why would you ? Mike |
|
| Author: | Mike Collins [ Wed Jul 07, 2010 5:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hide glue vs. fish glue |
[quote="Todd Stock"]One other thing...fish is much more sensitive to clamping pressure and duration of clamping than hide. In my testing, minimum time in clamps was twice that of hide, and I saw frequent failures in the glue line with anything less than a fully clamped joint (overlapping pressure fields from clamps) and 4 hours drying. This suggests that clamping methodology is important, and users should understand how clamp forces propagate. /quote] I never unclamp even a Epoxy joint in less then 4 hours. Mike |
|
| Author: | GregG [ Wed Jul 07, 2010 6:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hide glue vs. fish glue |
I've been using FG for approx 3 years now and have never had a joint problem. Greg |
|
| Author: | SteveSmith [ Thu Jul 08, 2010 6:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hide glue vs. fish glue |
I always leave fish glue joints clamped overnight. I don't like to rush it. |
|
| Author: | JJ Donohue [ Thu Jul 08, 2010 7:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hide glue vs. fish glue |
Joe Sustaire wrote: Very timely as I closed two boxes about a week ago using fish glue. I had bound the back and routed the channels for the top purf and binding, came back the next day and had seams opening up. Another box that I was replacing the back on and had glued on with fish glue was opening up also. This was my first time to use fish glue and I got it from Olde Mill, quart can, no idea who their source was. Now there were no directions about stirring on the can and after reading JJ's post this may be the problem, it's also been warm and humid here, but needless to say it's very frustrating. Had to open them up, re-sand and close with titebond. Joe I'm not sure who makes this either but it's likely to be Norland. One helpful practice I learned long ago is to test each new lot of glue...no matter who it comes from. This is how I found out about the importance of stirring FG. The original tests were far weaker than the sample I received from David Collins. After stirring the material and repeating the tests I had significantly better bond strength. Don't give up on the glue until you stir and repeat. Let us know if your results improve, Joe. Good luck! |
|
| Page 1 of 1 | All times are UTC - 5 hours |
| Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/ |
|