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Lets say you have some money... and you want to practice
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Author:  Aerith [ Tue Jul 27, 2010 5:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Lets say you have some money... and you want to practice
Lets say, you have something like $10 000, and you want to make yourself a nice little workshop for part-time building to "train" as a luthier on your own.

I already have most of the hand tools necessary, and about enought wood for my next 2 or 3 guitars. The thing is I can't really buy any big and expensive machines as I'll probably be leaving the country in a year or so, unless I manage to sell it or move it with me at this time.

How would you use that money?
Author:  Edward Taylor [ Tue Jul 27, 2010 5:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lets say you have some money... and you want to practice
In that situation, I would probably save the money until a time when I am settled down and able to invest in a shop and tools that will serve me for a while. In the mean time I would hone my skills with the hand tools.
But thats just what I would do.
Author:  Aerith [ Tue Jul 27, 2010 5:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lets say you have some money... and you want to practice
Yeah I am planning to keep most of it when it will of a better use for the machines, the things I am the most wondering about is the wood: wouldn't it be a good idea to buy a stock of wood now to get it dry as soon as possible?

Or maybe there is simply something I didn't think about, or another good strategy someone could have used or thought of? Just curious about what others would do.
Author:  bluescreek [ Tue Jul 27, 2010 6:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lets say you have some money... and you want to practice
Look at it this way , Education costs money , you either learn from a teacher or learn from the mistake. I would invest is at least a hobby class. That way you can work with a teacher , see what tools you really need. Also you will get a good idea what not to do. Sometime learning isn't about learning what is right but learning what isn't right.
There are more than one way to make these things. Find a class that you would be comfortable in Making a good guitar sure beats making 6 or 7 that are not. If you are trying to teach yourself , you will not have a good teacher.
Author:  James Orr [ Tue Jul 27, 2010 7:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lets say you have some money... and you want to practice
Interesting question. I'm enjoying the responses so far. When you say you already have most of the tools, what do you have, and have you already completed a guitar with them?

After finally completing one, I can say I'm pretty happy with the vast majority of my purchases. I like that I splurged on Lie-Nielsen planes (#5, 60 1/2, and Model Maker's) and ended up splurging with a pair of LMI chisels. I find myself wishing I had a few more nut making tools and things like that that I didn't romanticize about. I bought the 1000 and 4000 (maybe 6000?) Norton stones after reading Todd Stock's recommendation, along with the C/CX diamond stone, sold them, and wish I had them again. I wish I had a wide mouth thickness gauge rather than just my hand held caliper. I'm also pretty happy I splurged and asked John Hall to make my mold. There's real value in his products.

Why don't you take $500 or so and put it in the immediate education fund. I love John's suggestion about personal instruction, but there aren't any classes available in the Central Valley where I live. John Mayes' DVD's are awesome, and I can guarantee that my first wouldn't have been anywhere close to where it was without Advanced Voicing. I also really like Kent Everett's, particularly the thicknessing demo. We talk a lot about the uniqueness inherent in each piece of wood, but without a reference, it's really hard to build up that framework. Ervin Somogyi's books get rave reviews, and their on my list of aquisitions this fall.
Author:  alan stassforth [ Tue Jul 27, 2010 7:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lets say you have some money... and you want to practice
save dat money, but spend some of it on your git bldg hobby.
wood would be nice to buy, but then you have to move it.
18 years ago i was all ready to build electrics, bought a nice pile of wood, then realized how hard it is to make money at git bldg.
funny thing is, i'm using some of that wood for acoustics, or other projects.
so it would be smart to buy "some" wood, imo.
Author:  ChuckH [ Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lets say you have some money... and you want to practice
Pierre,
You should send the money to me for safe keeping. In the meantime, I'll build some guitars and tell you what mistakes I've made......

Just kidding of course.

Hope you spend wisely.

Hutch
Author:  Bart [ Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lets say you have some money... and you want to practice
bluescreek wrote:
... If you are trying to teach yourself , you will not have a good teacher.


Excellent point. However, I went to a lutherie school for 6 months and the experience was invaluable, but when I started working on my own I realized that I still had a LOT to learn. So there was still a lot of self-teaching, but with a foundation to build on.

So... I think if someone really wants to make guitars (good ones, without a lot of wasted time and wood) a good lutherie school is a great investment.
Author:  Aerith [ Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Lets say you have some money... and you want to practice
Thanks for your answer guys. I'd love you to tell me what kind of mistakes you've done and what you learnt... but without my money pizza

Right now I'm just back in my native country since about month. I spent the last 2 years in Scotland studying guitar making with luthiers Paul Hyland, William Kedlay and Michael Ritchie. Obviously I do still have LOADS of things learn/improve, but I also do feel confortable with working on my own for the time being (until I manage to find an apprenticeship if possible: anyone interrested? :p)

I made 3 guitars with my handtools so far (we only had a bandsaw and a driller at school)
and appart from my chisels which I want to change (japanese chisels... big mistake) and some things like bending iron/thickness calipper/ a new bench, I'm pretty set up with the basic stuff.

I was lucky enought to convince my teacher to order Ervin Somogyi's first book for the School's library and I have had to chance to read a good part of it (and it won to the complete set a place at the top of my buying list) along with some other good books like Making Master Guitars.

What I'd like to know is stuff like: how much wood do would you buy in my situation, and what kind of wood, or what book, or simply what amazing -but really expensive- transportable tool you would recommand.

Thanks to you all.
Author:  Aerith [ Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Lets say you have some money... and you want to practice
ah yeah and I forgot: Would you buy a big quantity of wood to get it cheaper, and just resale the boards you don't like, or do you think it would be too difficult to sell it back?
Author:  Kelby [ Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Lets say you have some money... and you want to practice
Stocking up on wood is something you do for fun, not because it is a good idea. (Most reputable sources of wood will season the wood before they sell it to you, so you do not need to have a stash curing in your shop for years in advance.)

Given that you (a) have limited resources, (b) are short on tools, and (c) are on the early end of the learning curve, I would strongly recommend against spending your limited funds on a wood pile. Good uses of your $ would include the things others have recommended here -- i.e., a good luthiery class, or saving your money to buy some decent tools when you move and are ready to set up your shop.

Good luck, whatever you choose to do.
Author:  truckjohn [ Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Lets say you have some money... and you want to practice
Here's something to think about for a minute.....

Not sure if you are a player or not -- I will assume for now that you have some knowledge of Guitar playing....

What makes a Guitar a "Good Guitar" in the hands of a Journeyman player....
My opinion based on many people I have talked to.. In Order goes like this:
1. High quality Fretwork.
2. Neck shape and feel
3. Intonation properly set and notes play the "Expected note"
4. Action is right for the style of play (Playability)
5. Everything else including Sound only gets considered once the 1st 4 items are sorted out....

Notice... All the stuff we routinely fuss over here on the web falls into Item 5 -- AKA stuff the Musician doesn't care about unless you already have Items #1-#4 sorted out.....

What you need more than anything else is *Practice* building Guitars so that you can get a handle on those First 4 items on the list.... You will only get that by Practicing Fretwork and Practicing Neck shaping and Practicing doing Setups and Practicing making Fretboards and gluing bridges properly...

If you haven't tried it yet -- start with a Thrift Store guitar -- One of the $30.00 Chinese ones.... Completely go thru it -- clean up the Fretwork, do a Bone Nut and Saddle + complete setup.. Evaluate the Intonation and sort that out if necessary.... Maybe even try out re-shaping the neck to suit your fancy... This helps with those first 4 items.... Once it is "Great" -- sell it or give it away and start on another one....

Or...

Try *building* a guitar... Not Building Jigs and Fixtures and Workbenches... Build a Guitar.... Buy proper "Guitar Wood" -- but start out with "Student Grade" wood... You can buy "Student grade" tops and back/side wood for a fraction of "Master Grade" prices.... and since the "Intrinsic value" as an instrument is largely determined by the Intonation, Neck feel, and Playability -- focus on that....

Thanks

John
Author:  the Padma [ Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Lets say you have some money... and you want to practice
Yu could invest it in
"The Banco du Padma" which offers a high rate of return.

Just stuff it into an envelop and send it to Duh Padma C/o dis here web site.


be
duh Padma
Author:  Aerith [ Wed Jul 28, 2010 1:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lets say you have some money... and you want to practice
I knew some good thought would come up. Buying cheap guitars to mess up with (trying to fix it of course) IS a good idea. But I'm not sure in which country "The banko du Palmas" is

I thought about assisting to one of José Romanillos course, as I think it's quite affordable. Anyone got any to recommand?

Thanks
Author:  truckjohn [ Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lets say you have some money... and you want to practice
Another place to check is local community colleges and trade schools... Some do have instrument making classes....

While a course with a Master can be a great thing..... On that 1st one... you are trying to get the hang of making a glue joint and holding a chisel... and you miss many of the "Golden Nuggets" that the master is trying to teach that you would understand better if you had built a few before you showed up....

But... Masters can teach builders at all skill levels.... so there is always something great to be learned... Having some good instruction can take *Years* off of the learning curve -- because that Master can show you the "Smart" way to do something that many of us would just blunder through....

Thanks

John
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Fri Jul 30, 2010 1:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Lets say you have some money... and you want to practice
You are in the south of France? To where are you moving?
Author:  Aerith [ Fri Jul 30, 2010 3:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lets say you have some money... and you want to practice
Yes I live in the south of France (between Marseille and Aix-en-Provence for those interrested, BEAUTIFUL place). Like I said I spent 2 years in Scotland studying guitar making at College. Right now things are a bit "tricky" for me as I still don't really know where I'll be in a year from now, but I have a good 80% of to leave again by 2012:

I am going to California in September for a two weeks interwiew with a famous luthier in order to become his apprentice (I'd rather not tell his name, at least not until things proove to be positive as he warned me it probably wouldn't happen, but still, I take the chance) The thing is that even if I we're both happy after this trial, and I do have a chance to be chosed, he probably won't be able to make any offer before a year from now as he needs to finish teaching his current apprentice, so I have a whole year in front of me for practice until then. In the mean time I'm also planning to look for other luthiers who could be interested to take an apprentice, we never know, but priority would go for this first offer in anycase ( unless someone offers to actually pay me , we can dream).

Right now I feel confortable making guitars on my own, even thought there's lots of room for improvement and a lack of knowledge about lots of things. I still don't have either the level of craftmanship, or the understanding of a real luthier to go professionnal. Moreover I have no idea concerning running a workshop, making business with dealers etc etc. So I'm really after experience and learning with pros, and improvement of my own designs/ideas. I don't mind moving to another country, learning new techniques from scratch again, or working 70 hours a week without getting paid: I just want to learn the pro's way.

So in a year from, I am REALLY hoping that I'll be living in California. But if for any reason the outcome was negative and I don't find any other Master to take me under his wings by beginning 2012, I am very likely to move and live in Thailand (for unrelated reasons, I lived there for a while already) and keep guitar making as a hobby until I feel ready to go semi-pro, and if I'm lucky Pro full-time: living there would make my success as a luthier much lower I guess, but the cost of life there would grant me a much better life quality.
Author:  Bailey [ Fri Jul 30, 2010 3:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lets say you have some money... and you want to practice
Save the money and try to apprentice with a luthier. Do it for no pay or little pay if possible...sweep floors, clean up and do the menial tasks for the master and learn something along the way for FREE. Offer to take on more challenging tasks. Learn from the bottom up and you will hold the total knowledge of very few.
kent
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