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ColorTone Filler... http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=28839 |
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Author: | Would [ Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:38 pm ] |
Post subject: | ColorTone Filler... |
Hey, I am trying to use colortone filler to fill the rosewood back/sides and mahogany neck and I am getting extremely frustrating... After 2 thick coats on the headplate which is rosewood I still have pores showing. I am doing it exactly as the instructions say is there any trick to this? At this rate its going to take me 2 days to fill the back and sides... I saw a tutorial on youtube about using drywall compound and dye. Would it be a bad idea to use that over the fill I already have in the wood? Thanks |
Author: | Fred Tellier [ Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:31 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: ColorTone Filler... |
Join the club, pore filling is not a fun easy task, I am not familiar with the product you are using but if it takes another application do it or you will not be happy later. I used two different fillers from Belhan and hated the results and mess but got a good finish in the end, it seemed to take a week to get it to the point of spraying. I switched to Z-poxy after reading rave reviews and tutorials on this forum and love the results. Be patient with it. Fred |
Author: | Haans [ Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:45 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: ColorTone Filler... |
Try white oak sometime...4 coats! |
Author: | Would [ Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:50 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: ColorTone Filler... |
Fred Tellier wrote: Join the club, pore filling is not a fun easy task, I am not familiar with the product you are using but if it takes another application do it or you will not be happy later. I used two different fillers from Belhan and hated the results and mess but got a good finish in the end, it seemed to take a week to get it to the point of spraying. I switched to Z-poxy after reading rave reviews and tutorials on this forum and love the results. Be patient with it. Fred Thanks for the advice Fred. I already started putting sanding sealer on the neck and headplate.. the neck itself was fine but the headplate could probably have used a little more filler. However, I am going to do at least a few more coats on the body. |
Author: | Andy Birko [ Mon Aug 30, 2010 7:46 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: ColorTone Filler... |
I have a can of the colortone filler and yes, it kind of sucks. On a side benefit, it does an exceptionally bad job of "popping" the grain as well. The only thing that's ever worked for me is to put on more coats. IIRC, leaving it on longer helps some too. The stuff does sand really easily so what you might try doing (and I've done this before when drop filling) is to squeegee in a coat then brush on a thin coat on top and don't squeegee that off. Just sand it down. May end up less work than doing 6 million coats. |
Author: | Would [ Mon Aug 30, 2010 8:53 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: ColorTone Filler... |
Andy Birko wrote: I have a can of the colortone filler and yes, it kind of sucks. On a side benefit, it does an exceptionally bad job of "popping" the grain as well. The only thing that's ever worked for me is to put on more coats. IIRC, leaving it on longer helps some too. The stuff does sand really easily so what you might try doing (and I've done this before when drop filling) is to squeegee in a coat then brush on a thin coat on top and don't squeegee that off. Just sand it down. May end up less work than doing 6 million coats. Andy, Its funny you mention putting on a second coat and leaving that because I finally broke down and did that earlier even though the back of the can says to wait a couple of hours... I ended up just putting on a coat and squeegeeing it but not enough to scrape to the wood then doing it once more..I would much rather sand that off then do this routine for another day. We'll see how that goes. It looks like it filled it better then the previous time. Another thing when you go to put on a second coat do you sand the previous down at all or just put the next coat right down on top(after letting it dry for 2 hours)? |
Author: | TonyKarol [ Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:46 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: ColorTone Filler... |
I still remember the day I got a call from Michael Collins (now in Arizona, formerly here in Canada), asking for advice on using the colortone filler .. I told him the best advice I have is throw it out, and buy some Zpoxy. I used it on a couple guitars 3-4 years back, and it was awful .. 3-4 coats, and still not filled. The can still sits on the shelf .... |
Author: | Howard Klepper [ Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:40 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: ColorTone Filler... |
I have had only bad experience with water based filler, if that's what you are using. The solution is to use something else. |
Author: | Would [ Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:22 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: ColorTone Filler... |
Yeah, its a water based filler and yeah its terrible.. Good thing I figured this out on my first guitar!! I am just glad to know this isn't how hard it has to be every other time. |
Author: | Alain Desforges [ Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:27 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: ColorTone Filler... |
In my opinion, you'll never beat old school Pumice. I've tried epoxies, but I hate the smell, the waiting, the sanding... Urgh! Pumice is quick, odorless (but the DA isn't), forgiving and looks killer. It doesn't shrink back either, as far as I've been able to tell... |
Author: | Would [ Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:12 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: ColorTone Filler... |
Alain Desforges wrote: In my opinion, you'll never beat old school Pumice. I've tried epoxies, but I hate the smell, the waiting, the sanding... Urgh! Pumice is quick, odorless (but the DA isn't), forgiving and looks killer. It doesn't shrink back either, as far as I've been able to tell... Could you point me in the direction of a certain brand of this? Has anyone used the drywall compound/dye method that I mentioned seeing on youtube? |
Author: | Alain Desforges [ Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:03 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: ColorTone Filler... |
http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=20059&cat=1,190,43040 I get mine from Lee Valley. I have the 4F because I didn't know better when buying it all those years ago, however, I'm pretty sure that for pore filling, you could use the 2F and get good results. Now Pumice filling will work under Shellac, Varnishes and Nitro. I don't know about the newer finishes like Cat Poly and such. My process is very simple. What you'll need: - Pumice. 4F. - 100 Dewaxed shellac. I try to use the palest available, which is the Blonde. - Some Denatured Alcohol. (Methyl Hydrate in hardware stores) I use a fine tipped squeeze bottle. -A muneca : A pad made for French polishing - a small, folded/bunched up piece of wool in a 4"X4" (the size doesn't really matter that much) piece of cotton. I like to use ancient cotton t-shirts that have been washed a zillion times, preferably white, but you can get away with other colors too, as long as it's old and doesn't bleed color. Always test on scrap firtst! I simply cut a piece, about 2"X2" of wool off some old (clean) socks. I roll it up and fold it on itself, so that have a U shaped wool ball. Then I just wrap the cotton around this core and tourniquet the ball inside the cotton so that it's nice and tight. Voila! You'll notice that after a while, you'll cut through the cotton with the Pumice, which is derived from stone, in fact. You can simply release the tourniquet and place the 'ball' in another area and start anew. I find that with a 4"X4" square, I can usually use the same cotton cover for 5-6 rounds until I need a new one. Process: Spray of wipe a good wash coat of 100% dewaxed shellac. If you're spraying, one coat should suffice. If you're wipping, go around 2-3 times. I usually don't wait too long to get going. Shellac is dry to the touch within minutes, depending on how you applied it, and you're just going to use it as a binder for your pore filling 'slurry' anyhow. Now I like to use a piece of white paper to sprinkle some Pumice on. I've sacrificed a salt shaker to this purpose. Spread it out on the paper by shaking the paper side to side. Think rolling foothills instead of high-peaked mountains. It's easier to pick up the pumice this way. Wet your muneca with the DA. 10 drops? Now you want to 'pinch' off some of that pumice. Now a part of the learning curve is figuring out how much you can take at once and get away with. Also, when your muneca is virgin, you'll have a hard time seeing just how much you're taking, but by the second time you load with pumice, you'll have a nice stain on your pad and the pumice will be easy to see. Just remember this. There's a reason they sell it by the pound. Don't be shy in picking it up. Think about 50% coverage of your pad surface. Also, if you take too much, you can just load up the pad with DA only and move the dried pumice slurry around the guitar's surface. Now once you've loaded the pad with pumice, drop another 2-3 drops of DA on there to wet the pumice. Never apply dry pumice to the guitar! I like to spread the wet pumice evenly over the surface of the pad. If you've done French Polish before, or shined boots, the rest is fairly easy. Apply in circular motions. You can also practice changing directions without lifting the pad off the surface. Say you're going clock-wise, make a figure 8 and change directions to counter-clock... Seperate the guitar in to quadrans and start working the pumice slurry into the pores. As soon as you touch the surface, you'll notice that you're building up this kind of slurry. You can also hear the sanding action at work. What you're actually doing is creating an amalgam of pumice, shellac and wood. If you're really meticulous and patient, you can almost do the guitar completely in one pass. I did a Wenge baritone in 2. Wenge has the mother of all pores. Craters more aptly describes them. Now you'll notice that this slurry can dry up on the surface. Just wet the pad with DA only and you'll 'melt' the slurry and it will move. After I'm done I like to wet a cotton rag with DA (no wool pad) and I wipe the guitar vigorously agross the grain. This will help clean up residual dried slurry. If that doesn't do it (and I do this step anyway) I very lighty sand the guitar with 320 grit (small cork lined block). Now you don't want to sand too hard and expose new pores. This sanding step is just to clean up whatever the DA rag left behind. Good luck! |
Author: | Barry Daniels [ Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:59 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: ColorTone Filler... |
I've tried most fillers and keep going back to the traditional paste wood pore filler. It comes in a water-based version or oil-based. I prefer the oil based. |
Author: | WaddyThomson [ Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:05 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: ColorTone Filler... |
I think my pumice is 6F or something like that. No wonder I'm having trouble getting pores filled with it! I need coarser pumice. It works, but it takes forever. It's almost fine enough for polishing, but it does leave tiny scratches that fill immediately with a body session. Something worth trying, though, and I found this because I kept having problems with the pumice gunking up on the muneca, is to make yourself a pounce. A pounce is a piece of cloth, like T-shirt cloth or whatever you are using for your muneca cover, and put a blob of pumice in the center, pull up the corners and make a ball around the blob of pumice. Tie it with a string or something, and instead of using a salt shaker, you can tap this on your muneca, and it delivers a very fine sprinkling of pumice over the whole surface, very evenly spaced and sifted to a fine coating. It clears easily with a few drops of alcohol, and does not tend to gunk up on the muneca like it does when you spread it with your finger. I just discovered this on my current guitar, and it has made pore filling much less annoying. |
Author: | Would [ Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:07 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: ColorTone Filler... |
Alain Desforges wrote: http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=20059&cat=1,190,43040 I get mine from Lee Valley. I have the 4F because I didn't know better when buying it all those years ago, however, I'm pretty sure that for pore filling, you could use the 2F and get good results. Now Pumice filling will work under Shellac, Varnishes and Nitro. I don't know about the newer finishes like Cat Poly and such. My process is very simple. What you'll need: - Pumice. 4F. - 100 Dewaxed shellac. I try to use the palest available, which is the Blonde. - Some Denatured Alcohol. (Methyl Hydrate in hardware stores) I use a fine tipped squeeze bottle. -A muneca : A pad made for French polishing - a small, folded/bunched up piece of wool in a 4"X4" (the size doesn't really matter that much) piece of cotton. I like to use ancient cotton t-shirts that have been washed a zillion times, preferably white, but you can get away with other colors too, as long as it's old and doesn't bleed color. Always test on scrap firtst! I simply cut a piece, about 2"X2" of wool off some old (clean) socks. I roll it up and fold it on itself, so that have a U shaped wool ball. Then I just wrap the cotton around this core and tourniquet the ball inside the cotton so that it's nice and tight. Voila! You'll notice that after a while, you'll cut through the cotton with the Pumice, which is derived from stone, in fact. You can simply release the tourniquet and place the 'ball' in another area and start anew. I find that with a 4"X4" square, I can usually use the same cotton cover for 5-6 rounds until I need a new one. Process: Spray of wipe a good wash coat of 100% dewaxed shellac. If you're spraying, one coat should suffice. If you're wipping, go around 2-3 times. I usually don't wait too long to get going. Shellac is dry to the touch within minutes, depending on how you applied it, and you're just going to use it as a binder for your pore filling 'slurry' anyhow. Now I like to use a piece of white paper to sprinkle some Pumice on. I've sacrificed a salt shaker to this purpose. Spread it out on the paper by shaking the paper side to side. Think rolling foothills instead of high-peaked mountains. It's easier to pick up the pumice this way. Wet your muneca with the DA. 10 drops? Now you want to 'pinch' off some of that pumice. Now a part of the learning curve is figuring out how much you can take at once and get away with. Also, when your muneca is virgin, you'll have a hard time seeing just how much you're taking, but by the second time you load with pumice, you'll have a nice stain on your pad and the pumice will be easy to see. Just remember this. There's a reason they sell it by the pound. Don't be shy in picking it up. Think about 50% coverage of your pad surface. Also, if you take too much, you can just load up the pad with DA only and move the dried pumice slurry around the guitar's surface. Now once you've loaded the pad with pumice, drop another 2-3 drops of DA on there to wet the pumice. Never apply dry pumice to the guitar! I like to spread the wet pumice evenly over the surface of the pad. If you've done French Polish before, or shined boots, the rest is fairly easy. Apply in circular motions. You can also practice changing directions without lifting the pad off the surface. Say you're going clock-wise, make a figure 8 and change directions to counter-clock... Seperate the guitar in to quadrans and start working the pumice slurry into the pores. As soon as you touch the surface, you'll notice that you're building up this kind of slurry. You can also hear the sanding action at work. What you're actually doing is creating an amalgam of pumice, shellac and wood. If you're really meticulous and patient, you can almost do the guitar completely in one pass. I did a Wenge baritone in 2. Wenge has the mother of all pores. Craters more aptly describes them. Now you'll notice that this slurry can dry up on the surface. Just wet the pad with DA only and you'll 'melt' the slurry and it will move. After I'm done I like to wet a cotton rag with DA (no wool pad) and I wipe the guitar vigorously agross the grain. This will help clean up residual dried slurry. If that doesn't do it (and I do this step anyway) I very lighty sand the guitar with 320 grit (small cork lined block). Now you don't want to sand too hard and expose new pores. This sanding step is just to clean up whatever the DA rag left behind. Good luck! Alain, Thank you for taking the time to post that up for me. I will save this post for reference later. That post is better then the instructions that came with this ColorTone kit.. ![]() |
Author: | Alain Desforges [ Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:19 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: ColorTone Filler... |
Waddy, that's a great idea about the pounce. I will certainly try it next time! Thanks! Would, think nothing of it! It was my pleasuer as I love hearing myself talk and it's a very slow day at work! LOL Actually, I'm a firm believer in using pumice. IMO, nothing looks better either, and I suspect, it is sonically superior to any other pore fill... ![]() |
Author: | Would [ Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:43 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: ColorTone Filler... |
Alain Desforges wrote: Waddy, that's a great idea about the pounce. I will certainly try it next time! Thanks! Would, think nothing of it! It was my pleasuer as I love hearing myself talk and it's a very slow day at work! LOL Actually, I'm a firm believer in using pumice. IMO, nothing looks better either, and I suspect, it is sonically superior to any other pore fill... ![]() Do you have any pictures of your guitars online? I would love to look at people guitars on here and you don't have any links.. |
Author: | Barry Daniels [ Thu Sep 02, 2010 11:03 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: ColorTone Filler... |
Why would pumice be sonically superior to other pore fillers? Maybe epoxy (although probably no audible difference), but certainly there is no reason it would be better than silica. |
Author: | Alain Desforges [ Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:41 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: ColorTone Filler... |
Barry, I was being facetious, which is why I inserted a little 'wink' emoticon at the end of that sentence. I don't think anyone could tell the difference between pore fillers, except, maybe, Eric Johnson... |
Author: | Barry Daniels [ Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:49 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: ColorTone Filler... |
OK. I've got the emoticons turned off so I didn't catch that. Your probably right about only Eric being able to hear it. |
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