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Concern regarding the 'Williams' Binding Jig
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Author:  runamuck [ Tue Oct 26, 2010 8:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Concern regarding the 'Williams' Binding Jig
Having become frustrated with the Ribbecke jig, I am just finishing up building the Williams jig -
the parallelegram type with the lazy susan.

It's the lazy susan that's concerning me. It just doesn't seem, especially when the drawer
is pulled out much, to be all that stable. even after peening the metal around the bearings.

Any advice from those of you who have used one successfully?
Author:  bluescreek [ Tue Oct 26, 2010 8:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Concern regarding the 'Williams' Binding Jig
you are overthinking it . the slight movement will not hurt a thing
Author:  Heath Blair [ Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Concern regarding the 'Williams' Binding Jig
yeah, i peened the bearing race to get a tighter fit. you have to get it just tight enough that theres no slop, but not so tight that it inhibits movement. like john said, its not that big of a deal. the laminate trimmer base and bearing will ride on and against the guitar body, so its pretty well supported.
Author:  Link Van Cleave [ Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Concern regarding the 'Williams' Binding Jig
Jim,
What frustrated you about the Ribbecke jig ? I am asking because I am thinking about building one.
Link
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Concern regarding the 'Williams' Binding Jig
bluescreek wrote:
you are overthinking it . the slight movement will not hurt a thing


Really, u r overthinking this. Degrees of freedom (DOF) are limited by the collar and router bearing. Flexing on the lazy Susan bearing is a non-issue.
Author:  runamuck [ Wed Oct 27, 2010 9:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Concern regarding the 'Williams' Binding Jig
Mike O'Melia wrote:
bluescreek wrote:
you are overthinking it . the slight movement will not hurt a thing


Really, u r overthinking this. Degrees of freedom (DOF) are limited by the collar and router bearing. Flexing on the lazy Susan bearing is a non-issue.


When I pull the arm out and the router is no longer plumb, square or perpendicular - how is that not a problem? If I
think less about this, those facts don't change.

Perhaps the cut does not require the kind of accuracy I'm assuming it does.
Author:  murrmac [ Wed Oct 27, 2010 9:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Concern regarding the 'Williams' Binding Jig
If you drilled a hole dead center in the roof of the plywood casing (ie concentric with the center of the lazy susan) and put a pin on it, you could jury rig a couple of struts (from 3" x2" or similar) attached to a plywood plate with the same size hole in it to go from the pin to the workshop walls. This would effectively triangulate the system and eliminate any movement caused by a sloppy lazy Susan.

Might be a bit of overkill, though ...
Author:  DannyV [ Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Concern regarding the 'Williams' Binding Jig
Because of the geometry of a guitar the cut may not always be square. Not to the top or back anyway. I try to set the body as parallel to the jig arm as possible. If you are finding that the turntable has too much slop you might want to try a larger or better quality one. I doubt if mine, when screwed to my bench, has less than 1 degree movement when the arm is extended.

Good Luck,
Danny
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Concern regarding the 'Williams' Binding Jig
Link Van Cleave wrote:
Jim,
What frustrated you about the Ribbecke jig ? I am asking because I am thinking about building one.
Link


Link...I've used both systems and was disappointed in the Ribbecke system because I never felt comfortable with moving the guitar into the work. It also requires a greater degree of accuracy to get the binding cut precisely perpendicular to the router bit. That was difficult for me since my hands were so far away from the work. With the Williams jig, the router is moved into the stationary guitar. Since my hand is then closer to the cut, I feel far more comfortable in getting the bit precisely positioned. It was apparent to me immediately that this is a better solution.

Bottom line...my accuracy and results have become much better than the Ribbecke jig. If you have a chance to use both systems, I believe you will also convinced. IMO, an accurately milled donut is essential for each system to work optimally.
Author:  jac68984 [ Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Concern regarding the 'Williams' Binding Jig
JJ Donohue wrote:
Link Van Cleave wrote:
IMO, an accurately milled donut is essential for each system to work optimally.


Where can I buy or find an accurately milled donut. I plan on building a Williams style jig very soon and would really like to incorporate such a donut. Unfortunately, I do not have the equipment to mill one myself.

Thanks,

Aaron
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Concern regarding the 'Williams' Binding Jig
Well, it could be you bought your LS at Lowes instead of the source indicated on the plans (??) Mine is pretty sturdy as well. Yet, to answer your question, the router is on a parallelogram mechanism and the most important thing is how the router is held to the body. The nylon collar and the bit bearing are the most important things. Regardless of the "slop", as long as the bearing is in solid contact with the side, and the collar is resting on the back, I see no issue. Mount some scrap boards in your holding jig and see. If under any circumstances the bearing is not in solid, full contact, then you have a problem. This would happen if the arm was not parallel to the bench surface (and was locked that way, you could not move it up or down). Finally, it is important to get the body level with the surface as well. Right now, I just do not see a problem.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Concern regarding the 'Williams' Binding Jig
jac68984 wrote:
JJ Donohue wrote:
Link Van Cleave wrote:
IMO, an accurately milled donut is essential for each system to work optimally.


Where can I buy or find an accurately milled donut. I plan on building a Williams style jig very soon and would really like to incorporate such a donut. Unfortunately, I do not have the equipment to mill one myself.

Thanks,

Aaron


The plans indicate McMaster-Carr. I rough cut mine with a hack saw, then gound and buffed to final dimensions. For me, the hard part was the aluminum base plate for mounting the router (and inserting the donut). Some make it out of acrylic, and that is just fine. I went to a machine shop and had mine made out of aluminum, and the donut hole drilled and chamfered precisely for the nylon collar from McMaster-Carr.
Author:  Michael Smith [ Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Concern regarding the 'Williams' Binding Jig
I made my doughnut with a hole saw.
Then drilled out the hole to 3/8"
Then stuck a 3/8" short bolt thru the hole and put a washer and nut on it
Then chucked into the drill press.
Set up my shop vac
Put on my dust mask
Turned on drill press and went to work with heavy file and sanding block
Then drilled out the 3[8" hole to needed size

You can buy the material needed at Tap Plastic
Author:  Edward Taylor [ Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Concern regarding the 'Williams' Binding Jig
You really gotta dig through the drawer at home depot to get the tightest one. That and what the others said about it not mattering much.
Author:  bluescreek [ Wed Oct 27, 2010 4:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Concern regarding the 'Williams' Binding Jig
I have the machined donuts $15 plus shipping they are made out of UHMW nylon
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Concern regarding the 'Williams' Binding Jig
John makes good donuts...that's where I got mine.
Author:  Rod True [ Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Concern regarding the 'Williams' Binding Jig
JJ Donohue wrote:
John makes good donuts...that's where I got mine.


Does his donuts have glazing on them.......





I couldn't resist :D
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Wed Oct 27, 2010 9:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Concern regarding the 'Williams' Binding Jig
bluescreek wrote:
I have the machined donuts $15 plus shipping they are made out of UHMW nylon

Time to make the donuts! ;)
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Wed Oct 27, 2010 9:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Concern regarding the 'Williams' Binding Jig
Hey John, are your donuts sized exactly as in the plans? It matters since my aluminum base is milled for those from McMaster-Carr called out in the parts list ... Might want to get one from u.
Author:  Jim Watts [ Thu Oct 28, 2010 12:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Concern regarding the 'Williams' Binding Jig
I've always used the Ribbecke style binding machine, but it always feels a liitle wiered pushing the guitar through instread of moving the router, never really had a problem either though. But ever since I read Harry's artical on his design way back in AL#71 I thought I should make one. I know I'm way over due!
I have a body ready to bind and I'm thinking if I should just stop and make it.
So my question is; The Williams jig is suppose to be an improvement over Harry's design, does anyone know what was actually improved? I see the differences, but am not certain I see impovement and Harrys original design looks like it'd take up less space.
Any thoughts?

Oh, if I buy a donut from John, can get some coffee to go with it?
Author:  Alan Carruth [ Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Concern regarding the 'Williams' Binding Jig
I was all set to make up a Williams jig a few years ago, but I didn't like the idea that the lazy Susan base would take up half a bench more or less permanently. So I made some changes and came up with a '3-axis' setup.

I have a 2x4 foot bench with a flat top and the 2' side attached to the wall. I mounted some 2x stock on the wall, which I dressed down smooth and square. I put two heavy duty extension drawer glides on those, making sure they were perfectly parallel. The lower one is about 8" off the bench top, iirc.

I attached a thick plywood plate to these drawer glides, which then became the base of a cantelever arm that extends out over the bench top for about 2', perpendicular to the wall. One face of that arm got another heavy duty extension drawer glide set attached to it.

A plate attached to those glides holds a short set of glides that run vertically, although a parallel arm arangement would have worked as well.

Attatched to those glides is the router base. When not in use, the router and arm can be pushed back beyond the corner of the bench, so that essentially the whole bench top is accessible, at last from one side. THe router won't drop down far enough to touch the bench top.

The worst slop in the rig is in the final set of short vertical glides. I have not investigated the availablilty of sturdier ones; the total slop is not great, and less, I think, than that of the LS rigs I've seen.

I think there's a pic of this rig on the New England Luthier's web site.
Author:  bluescreek [ Thu Oct 28, 2010 7:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Concern regarding the 'Williams' Binding Jig
I didn't use those plans the donut is 3 inch in diameter
Author:  Ken Jones [ Sun Oct 31, 2010 12:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Concern regarding the 'Williams' Binding Jig
Here's the plan I decided on, and I've been very happy with it. I mounted mine to an otherwise in-the-way structural support post in the middle of my shop, and it hovers above my workbench where I have a removable fixture that holds the body. I plum the guitar sides using my handy Wixey digital level, and it's off to the races. I do need to replace the plywood router base with machined aluminum, but it's still plenty precise. I added the springs to create a bit of recoil in the arm, so it tends to float over the work rather than dragging across it. I also replaced the wooden donut with a UHMW one. it stows nicely out of the way as well.

http://www.lint.org/TechNotes/Chaos_Article/ChaosToCustom.html
Author:  bluescreek [ Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Concern regarding the 'Williams' Binding Jig
There were many improvements made to the original design . One thing I did that I feel makes the unit more stable is I moved the Lazy Susan bearing and made it a bit bigger. I have the LS on top of the center box. That way once the arm is resting on the guitar it makes it very stable. Also use Aluminum for the side pieces and wood with a close tolerance hole. This takes a lot of the play out of the mechanism , but again, as long as it is stable , that is the most important .
Author:  Denny [ Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Concern regarding the 'Williams' Binding Jig
John, from your videos (thanks for those by the way) I noticed that it looks like you attach your Porter Cable router to an aluminum plate at the end of the arm as opposed to sitting on a platform/base. Could you describe what's happening there?
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