Official Luthiers Forum!
http://luthiersforum.com/forum/

Titebond I, II, III, which for what?
http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=31065		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  WendyW [ Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Titebond I, II, III, which for what?
I have always used regular Titebond until recently when I used type II for part of a rope glue-up. Does one serve all purposes for you, or do you use each for different jobs? I now have a bottle of each and don't know when to reach for which. I know some of you prefer hide, and fish, but my question is specifically about what each type of Titebond is best for.
Wendy
Author:  Pat Foster [ Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Titebond I, II, III, which for what?
I'd recommend staying away from type III for guitar building. I recently saw a guitar built a few months ago with TB III. It was his second; his first was built in a class. The second one's action had been rising. I checked it with a straightedge along the top between the neck joint and the bridge. The fretboard is taking a dive. Can't say for sure it's TBIII, but folks have mentioned that it creeps. I use Original a lot. No complaints.

Pat
Author:  WendyW [ Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Titebond I, II, III, which for what?
That's interesting. I was told to use Titebond III to glue purfling to binding before bending so that it can creep as it bends. I also used Titebond II on the outer (or inner) border of a rope that was going to be bent. Both of those instructions came from this forum, but I can't remember who or when.
Author:  Darrel Friesen [ Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Titebond I, II, III, which for what?
verhoevenc wrote:
Titebond II and III have no place in guitar building.
Chris


I would agree with Chris for the most part. They both creep and it's hard to get an invisible glue line on light woods, creeps on stressed joints etc. I did use Titebond lll to add a strip to widen the sides on a pine 1-18 I'm building for the MIMF acoustic challenge as I had read similar things about it not being affected by heat. That is a true statement as I bent the pine sides easily with no separation and a more or less invisible glue line. Time will tell if it holds up, but it did the job nicely on what will be a $20 or $30 build. It also worked great to glue a broken off piece of an oak bench that sits outside full time. :P
Author:  Mark Groza [ Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Titebond I, II, III, which for what?
verhoevenc wrote:
Titebond II and III have no place in guitar building.
Chris

+1.....I agree!
Author:  GNGuitars [ Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Titebond I, II, III, which for what?
verhoevenc wrote:
Titebond II and III have no place in guitar building.
Chris



Totally agree. Type II & III serve thier purpose in trim work, furniture and small crafts, but don't offer any advantage to guitar building. I've substituted Hide Glue for a lot of what I was doing with the original titebond and now I won't go back. I recommend taking that leap of faith.
Author:  Josh H [ Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Titebond I, II, III, which for what?
I have used both 2 and 3 for gluing purfling to binding before bending (currently using 3 for this). The higher heat resistance makes them ideal glues for this. That is the only operation I would use 2 or 3 for.

Josh
Author:  brazil66 [ Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Titebond I, II, III, which for what?
I see no use for number 2 at all. Number 1 general use.....number 3 for water proof exterior work, instead of Gorilla glue...which I no longer trust / like. Just my opinion here.
Author:  violinvic [ Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Titebond I, II, III, which for what?
Titebond II & III are waterproof or water resistant. III being more waterproof than II. I used III to join the back plates for a double bass. The back is first carved, then the back is bent in the upper bout. Using water and steam would cause a joint that was not waterproof to fail on bending. So far, so good. I use mostly hide glue, but ther are times that I opt for titebond I.
Author:  mtracz [ Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Titebond I, II, III, which for what?
I also use III to glue purfling to binding nothing else. The reason being higher heat resistance.

_Mike
Author:  Parser [ Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Titebond I, II, III, which for what?
violinvic wrote:
Titebond II & III are waterproof or water resistant. III being more waterproof than II. I used III to join the back plates for a double bass. The back is first carved, then the back is bent in the upper bout. Using water and steam would cause a joint that was not waterproof to fail on bending. So far, so good. I use mostly hide glue, but ther are times that I opt for titebond I.


Titebond III also has the lowest initial strength, with Titebond II in the middle of the pack, and Titebond original having the highest strength. least creep, and least environmental resistance (heat & humidity). The testing that glues undergo literally involves putting the part in a pot of boiling water to see if they delaminate. Unless you are planning on boiling your instrument, just use Titebond original...!

Trev
Author:  Laurent Brondel [ Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Titebond I, II, III, which for what?
Gorilla wood glue is an excellent PVA alternative (TB1 is an AR glue), has much better tack, dries clear and hard, has better heat resistance, and as far I can tell does not creep.
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Titebond I, II, III, which for what?
I use Titebond II for marquetry purflings because of its superior heat resistance.
Author:  hugh.evans [ Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Titebond I, II, III, which for what?
By day I work as a Technical Specialist at Franklin International, so I field this exact question on a regular basis. I've recommended Titebond II exactly once for instrument construction. Why? It was for a redwood laminated top that will never need to be dismantled and Titebond II has an affinity for "sappier" woods. For everything else I recommend Titebond Original, Titebond Extend, or animal glue. All of our PVA wood glues have the same strength at room temperature, about 3200-3400 PSI, when tested in shear on hard maple. Since they all form a bond stronger than the wood we are literally testing the strength of maple blocks, which is the reason this strength range is the same for all three. At elevated temperatures (we test at 150°F) Titebond Original and Titebond II lose roughly half of their strength while Titebond III loses up to 2/3rds. Without giving up any trade secrets there is distinct difference in the strength of a joint made with Titebond III that has seen boiling temperatures at some point early in its' life compared to one that has only been to 150°. The best creep resistance of our wood glues is Liquid Hide Glue followed by Titebond Extend, Titebond Original, Titebond II, and Titebond III (note the relation to thermal resistance at 150°F, creep is a function of temperature). Animal glues are exceptional aside from their moisture resistance. Titebond Original, and non-catalized PVAs in general, can be dismantled using heat or steam. Titebond II and III, both catalyzed, will respond to heat but will not be the high point of your day.

In very simple terms: Titebond Original, Extend, or animal glue are best for interior applications such as musical instruments. Titebond II is excellent for outdoor use where pieces will be exposed to the elements. Titebond III is excellent where high temperature moisture resistance is needed, my favorite example being cutting boards. Despite your warning eventually a cutting board is likely to spend time in a dishwasher and Titebond III can withstand such treatment... such an example of an abused cutting board sits in my office and it displays no signs of separation.
Author:  truckjohn [ Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Titebond I, II, III, which for what?
See... Good info....

I have been thinking about what to do for a cutting board I want to build for Mom.... I was concerned because every kitchen implement she owns runs through the dishwasher every time it's used.... so regular glue just won't do the trick...

Thanks
Author:  Parser [ Fri Feb 11, 2011 8:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Titebond I, II, III, which for what?
great info hugh, thanks for posting!

Trev
Author:  nickton [ Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Titebond I, II, III, which for what?
excellent topic.

I wonder about Gorilla glue, and consider trying it instead of epoxy for gluing a fingerboard on.
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Sat Feb 12, 2011 3:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Titebond I, II, III, which for what?
Hugh, thanks a lot for posting.

But you seem to first say that Titebond Original and Titebond II lose the same amount of strength from exposure to 150º heat, and then to say that Titebond Original disassembles with heat much more readily than does Titebond II. Can you clarify that? Thanks!
Author:  TonyFrancis [ Sat Feb 12, 2011 8:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Titebond I, II, III, which for what?
-
Author:  Jim Watts [ Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Titebond I, II, III, which for what?
Titebond III does indeed work excellent for glueing the side purfs to the binding prior to bending, its the only thing I use it on however.
Thanks for the post hugh, If you're still around I wounder if you could explain why the liquid hide glue has such a poor reputation amongst us istrument builders.
I believe it's done very well in various wood test but everyone cautions against it due to it's poor creep I believe, I've not used it except to put labels on :)
Thanks
Author:  hugh.evans [ Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Titebond I, II, III, which for what?
Nickton: Neither liquid polyurethane or epoxy are overly convenient for attaching a fingerboard or for future maintenance. If you plan to use a PVA try surface prep with acetone prior to gluing and keep clamps on for at least 24 hours.

Howard: Sorry, the 50% strength loss at 150°F is approximate and Titebond II will lose a bit more. The reason Titebond Original disassembles more easily owe to its' lack of water resistance. Live steam will separate a neck joint almost as nicely as it will with hide glue.

Tony: The marquetry work is being done prior to bending? You may need to consider modifying the process possibly by taping over affected areas and using cauls in the bending process. We can certainly discuss this further if you would care to further elucidate.

Jim: My guess as to the mixed reputation of Liquid Hide Glue amongst instrument builders is due to experience with expired product and that it is much more finicky than modern PVAs. One ASTM spec we commonly test involves creep. Since it is a pass/fail qualification we have not historically quantified the results but I am preparing a test series to change that. I will make sure to post results here if anyone is interested. Liquid hide glue will degrade over time, and we start off with some rather high grade granular material. The best way to test it is to spread a thin film over paper and allow it to dry for a few hours. When placed over a hard surface and tapped with a fingernail it should feel similar to hard plastic. Additionally, if you attempt to bend the film it should crack extensively. Hide glue will eventually fail to fully dry and will remain tacky, which is a sure sign it is past its' useful life.

These are all good questions. I try to login a couple of times a week, and don't be afraid to shoot me a PM if you have a question.
Author:  Barry Daniels [ Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Titebond I, II, III, which for what?
I prefer epoxy for fingerboard joints because it doesn't add moisture to the wood which can cause unwanted movement. It is not inconvenient if you are use to it. And it does nothing to harm future repairs as it allows quite easy disassembly with added heat.
Author:  MikeyV [ Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Titebond I, II, III, which for what?
Sorry to bring up an old thread, but it is a good one!

I need to glue a shim (thick one, like 0.100") on to one side of a dovetail tenon, as I screwed up cutting it and went to far...had the jig set full one way, when it should have been full the other. Oh well, the guitar if for me, and only my fourth, lesson learned. Were this for someone else, I'd probably build a new neck...might still.

Anyhow, I was thinking that a waterproof glue would be good for ensuring that the thick shim stayed put if the dovetail was ever disassembled with steam. Normally, I'm a hide glue user, and I know TBII and TBIII are not really for building instruments.

My two options are (1) glue the shim in with hide glue, finish shaping the dovetail, and let the shim come off when the neck is steamed off
or (2) try TBII or III so that the shim would remain in place after a neck removal. If the shim ever needed to be removed, one could just route or chisel it off.

My only concern is cold creep, as this would be a stressed joint. But the shim would be sandwiched in the dovetail, not sure where it could really creep to...

This may be one more place where TBII or III might be useful.

Thanks!
Author:  Tom West [ Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Titebond I, II, III, which for what?
Mickey: Most likely the only reason the neck will come off is to do a reset which will require new shims anyway..............!!!
Tom
Author:  MikeyV [ Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Titebond I, II, III, which for what?
Yeah, but I really screwed it up when routing the dovetail. I had the template slid the wrong way, and I cut one side before I realized it. So one side is still oversized, but the side I cut is a good bit undersized. So I want to build the bad side back up with a hunk of wood, then re-route the dovetail.
It's this piece I'd like to have glued permanently. I still might end up with a traditionl thin shim when I glue the neck in.

But I do see what you're saying. Maybe I'm worried about it too much...like usual.

Thanks Tom!
Page 1 of 3 All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/