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avoiding milky staining when using LMI white or Titebond
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Author:  Corky Long [ Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:43 am ]
Post subject:  avoiding milky staining when using LMI white or Titebond
All,

I've been evaluating my glue choices for various tasks in building, and would like some advice on an issue that I experienced early on with LMI white.

I like Hot Hide Glue for joining tops, braces, tail and neck blocks, kerfing, closing the box, and laminating necks. I've been using CA for rosettes and recently for binding and purfling, (because I have a tough time working fast enough with HHG on purfs and bindings) but have had a tough time getting the fit tight enough with CA, and was interested in comments that Laurent Brondel made about the difficulty in having a seamless fit with CA in binding. Titebond (and LMI white, I presume) are better for him, since the moisture in the glue both joins the binding together as it dries, and makes the purf and binding more flexible while taping. Makes sense to me - I'll be trying that on the next build.

Here's my question - when I last used LMI white in binding I ended up with a bit of a milky white cast that was left on the top and binding. I seem to recall having difficulty in scraping and sanding it off. Has anyone else experieced this? Did I just not scrape enough? Is there a technique for avoiding this? Thanks.
Author:  DennisK [ Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: avoiding milky staining when using LMI white or Titebond
Also comes off with hot water.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: avoiding milky staining when using LMI white or Titebond
That would be Zinsser Seal Coat, I presume.

I have had no issues with LMI White glue, and have used it in most places on the guitar at one time or another. I find it to be an excellent glue. It has a pretty short open time, though, so relatively quick work is required. I have not been able to find it, but Bogdanovich uses Titebond White Glue for bindings and purflings. Cleaning as you go helps a lot. I have started doing that, and have noticed a big difference. put the glue on, and clean all the surfaces not being glued before putting the pieces in place, then quickly wipe squeezeout and tape. There's some additional squeezeout from the pressure, but it's much easier to clean up. Watching Robbie's video has some value too, in not using too much glue. I think most of us do. Huge amounts of squeezeout are not a requirement. If your fits are good, a small glue presence will do the trick.
Author:  ernie [ Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: avoiding milky staining when using LMI white or Titebond
Elmers glue all has a longer open time 15 min, used by furniture conservators. Got it at homeless depot, as I could not find titebond 1 there or at lowes. Planning to use it for purfling an binding. You can also mix your own shellac, I get it from woodworkers supply ,seedlac , has some wax in it. ernie. Elmers washes out with water.
Author:  pvg [ Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: avoiding milky staining when using LMI white or Titebond
Titebond White Glue is often available at "ordinary" hardware stores; e.g. they carry it-as well as most of the other Titebond products at my local "True Value" hardward store.
pvg
Author:  Corky Long [ Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: avoiding milky staining when using LMI white or Titebond
Thanks, all, for the feedback. I'll use a wash coat of shellac on the top for protection.
Author:  Dave Fifield [ Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: avoiding milky staining when using LMI white or Titebond
Todd Stock wrote:
In reasonable thickness glue lines, LMI White dries clear if fresh. If it dries to a milky finish, it's likely too old.


Hmmm, interesting....the latest bottle of LMI Luthier's Glue that I started using just a few weeks ago is showing the same symptoms....it seems to dry white/milky. That bottle is about 6 months old IIRC (well, that's when I got it from LMI) I've not seen this issue before, even on bottles as old as 2 years! It's something that has only just started happening IMO. I wonder if there's a problem?

I'm going to do some tests on scrap wood tonight. I have another brand new unopened bottle of it in the fridge that came from LMI just a few weeks ago. I'll compare that to some of the very old stuff I have still lying around and report back.

Cheers,
Dave F.
Author:  peter.coombe [ Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: avoiding milky staining when using LMI white or Titebond
LMI Luthier's Glue will dry white/milky if the temperature is too low. Doesn't matter if the glue is fresh, it will still go wilte/milky if the temperature is too low. Turn the heater on, problem solved. I have been using it for years with great results, but only glue if the temperature is above 15deg C, and warm the glue up after taking it from the fridge.

Peter
Author:  Burton LeGeyt [ Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: avoiding milky staining when using LMI white or Titebond
A bottle that I thought had frozen en route did that. I threw it away and now I test each new bottle to see if it dries clear or white. I consider it to be a signifier of bad glue but it may just be the temp is too low, I am not sure. If I noticed that happening now I would toss it.
Author:  CharlieT [ Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: avoiding milky staining when using LMI white or Titebond
I glued up a back a few days ago with a several-weeks-old bottle of LMI white and the squeeze-out dried opaque white. I did the glue-up indoors and temps were typical "room temperature" (low 70s) and I don't believe the glue froze during shipping.
Author:  B. Howard [ Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: avoiding milky staining when using LMI white or Titebond
ernie wrote:
Elmers glue all has a longer open time 15 min, used by furniture conservators. Got it at homeless depot, as I could not find titebond 1 there or at lowes. Planning to use it for purfling an binding. You can also mix your own shellac, I get it from woodworkers supply ,seedlac , has some wax in it. ernie. Elmers washes out with water.


Beware using shellac of any type with wax in it unless you are going to do a pure shellac finish like a French Polish. If you try and put nitro or something else over it, the wax can prevent it from bonding.

Brian
Author:  nickton [ Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: avoiding milky staining when using LMI white or Titebond
I thought a sour smell meant the LMI white glue was bad. Titebond is aliphatic resin glue which is supposed to be stronger than Elmer's, which is poly vinyl resin emulsion glue,(or at least used to be). The newer Elmer's says it's stronger so I wonder if it's still poly vinyl. In the old Irving Sloane book it says both titebond and elmer's has a shelf life of 6 to 8 months... "At temperatures below 60 degrees F, the glue turns chalky and strength is impaired" (Elmer's, that is). I wonder if the LMI is polyvinyl too. Sloane also recommended using Elmer's for the neck joint because it is easier to remove and more water soluble than titebond.
Author:  Dave Fifield [ Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: avoiding milky staining when using LMI white or Titebond
Ah-ha! It's the temperature then!! Thanks for the tip Peter [:Y:]

I moved house/workshop last Thanksgiving, and have had this issue ever since I got the new workshop up and running this year. There was no heat in the workshop until a couple weeks back (I installed a 10KW electric blower unit - works great!) and the temperature has been in the low 50 degF region for some time now. We're back up in the low 60's (and going higher!) again this week, so I think all will be well from now on.

Cheers,
Dave F.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: avoiding milky staining when using LMI white or Titebond
My experience with LMI White is that it is a bit on the milky side of clear - sort of translucent, in a milky sort of way. Have not found it to be an issue. Small amounts, against dark wood, look clear when dry.
Author:  Hank Mauel [ Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: avoiding milky staining when using LMI white or Titebond
Corky Long wrote:
All,

I've been evaluating my glue choices for various tasks in building, and would like some advice on an issue that I experienced early on with LMI white.

I like Hot Hide Glue for joining tops, braces, tail and neck blocks, kerfing, closing the box, and laminating necks. I've been using CA for rosettes and recently for binding and purfling, (because I have a tough time working fast enough with HHG on purfs and bindings) but have had a tough time getting the fit tight enough with CA, and was interested in comments that Laurent Brondel made about the difficulty in having a seamless fit with CA in binding. Titebond (and LMI white, I presume) are better for him, since the moisture in the glue both joins the binding together as it dries, and makes the purf and binding more flexible while taping. Makes sense to me - I'll be trying that on the next build.

Here's my question - when I last used LMI white in binding I ended up with a bit of a milky white cast that was left on the top and binding. I seem to recall having difficulty in scraping and sanding it off. Has anyone else experieced this? Did I just not scrape enough? Is there a technique for avoiding this? Thanks.



Didn't notice anyone recommend fish glue. Has it lost favor here on the Forum?
It is in the "animal" glue family, but has a longer open time than HHG, thus easier to use, especially as you work binding around the guitar. Use from the bottle at 70 degrees or above. No heating required of the glue itself.
Dries clear and cleans up with water. Still, the shellac wash coat is a great idea. It also helps with the tape removal by holding the wood fibers together.

Another note...if you're using CA on rosettes you might want to seal the channels first as CA will weep into the end grain of top woods and discolor the wood. Or, use the fish glue for the rosettes.
Author:  Corky Long [ Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: avoiding milky staining when using LMI white or Titebond
Thanks, Hank. I've read many of the threads on fish glue but haven't tried it yet. Great suggestion.

On the rosettes, I do use a washcoat of shellac in the channels prior to gluing the rosettes in place, as per your suggestion. Thanks!
Author:  Hank Mauel [ Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: avoiding milky staining when using LMI white or Titebond
Corky Long wrote:
Thanks, Hank. I've read many of the threads on fish glue but haven't tried it yet. Great suggestion.

On the rosettes, I do use a washcoat of shellac in the channels prior to gluing the rosettes in place, as per your suggestion. Thanks!



Corky...I've used the fish glue in many areas of building, including binding for many years. No problems yet, and like you, I do bracing with HHG. I love it, but you have to be FAST when using it on top/back attachment!

Shellac in the rosette grooves...
Sounds like you have the bases covered! Carry on young man! [:Y:]
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