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| Butt Wedges and Binding Ledges http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=32068 |
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| Author: | MikeyV [ Mon May 02, 2011 10:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Butt Wedges and Binding Ledges |
I'm about to finish up the box on a build, and I'll be doing a tortoise (celluloid) butt wedge. Is it the correct sequence to install the butt wedge (long) and then cut the binding ledges, thus cutting the wedge to length? I'll be usint a router bit in a Tru-channel set-up. Can the router melt the celluloid, or leave a funky edge? I know people bind the guitar, and then fit the butt-wedge in by hand, but it seems rather difficult. Thanks for the tips. |
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| Author: | Hupaand [ Mon May 02, 2011 11:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Butt Wedges and Binding Ledges |
Put the wedge in first. |
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| Author: | klooker [ Mon May 02, 2011 11:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Butt Wedges and Binding Ledges |
Will the wedge have decorative purfling along the edges? If it does, will this purfling miter into more of the same purfling that's below the bottom edges of the bindings? If this is what you want, the end of the tail wedge needs to extend above the bottom edge binding channels by the amount of the thickness of the purfling. If there's no purfling or if you want it to dead into the bottom edge of the binding, install the tail wedge first, then cut the top of it when you rout for the binding channels. Kevin Looker |
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| Author: | John Mayes [ Mon May 02, 2011 11:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Butt Wedges and Binding Ledges |
I've done it both ways. I vastly prfer now doing the wedge after the binding. It does take a bit of practice to get comfortable with fitting the wedge, but it;s not bad. And doing the miters is so much easier. I first saw this from Bruce Sexaur quite a few years back and I've done it that way since. Here is a blod post I did when making Steven Curtis Chapman's guitar that shows the process: http://www.mayesguitars.com/index.php?o ... &Itemid=48  
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| Author: | MikeyV [ Mon May 02, 2011 12:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Butt Wedges and Binding Ledges |
I'm sorry, I should have mentioned that it's a simple wedge, no purflings. So I'm sure the way to go is wedge first, then bindings. Great pipcs too, very snazzy. |
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| Author: | letseatpaste [ Mon May 02, 2011 1:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Butt Wedges and Binding Ledges |
John Mayes wrote: I've done it both ways. I vastly prfer now doing the wedge after the binding. It does take a bit of practice to get comfortable with fitting the wedge, but it;s not bad. And doing the miters is so much easier. I first saw this from Bruce Sexaur quite a few years back and I've done it that way since. Thanks for posting that, John. I noticed in Somogyi's book that he did it that way and it made a lot of sense to me. I hadn't seen anyone else doing it that way. Do you glue the wedge and the wedge's purfling all in one shot, or purfling first? Somogyi does purfling first with little scalpel blades to hold it in place. It seems like it'd be easier to do it all at once, but I haven't tried either way yet. |
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| Author: | John Mayes [ Mon May 02, 2011 1:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Butt Wedges and Binding Ledges |
letseatpaste wrote: John Mayes wrote: I've done it both ways. I vastly prfer now doing the wedge after the binding. It does take a bit of practice to get comfortable with fitting the wedge, but it;s not bad. And doing the miters is so much easier. I first saw this from Bruce Sexaur quite a few years back and I've done it that way since. Thanks for posting that, John. I noticed in Somogyi's book that he did it that way and it made a lot of sense to me. I hadn't seen anyone else doing it that way. Do you glue the wedge and the wedge's purfling all in one shot, or purfling first? Somogyi does purfling first with little scalpel blades to hold it in place. It seems like it'd be easier to do it all at once, but I haven't tried either way yet. I glue them in separately. I use push pins because I like the way the pin part is slightly tapered at the end. I can put the point right next to the base of the purfling and then push it in and it presses the purfling even tighter against the wood. 
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| Author: | Hupaand [ Mon May 02, 2011 2:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Butt Wedges and Binding Ledges |
For us mortals, 2 edges are easier to fit than 4. Especially, those of us who are still relative beginners. Hugh |
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| Author: | John Mayes [ Mon May 02, 2011 2:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Butt Wedges and Binding Ledges |
Hupaand wrote: For us mortals, 2 edges are easier to fit than 4. Especially, those of us who are still relative beginners. Hugh Don't sell yourself short. The method I showed above is actually pretty easy to execute. |
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| Author: | MikeyV [ Mon May 02, 2011 3:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Butt Wedges and Binding Ledges |
Cool pics, using the taper on the push pin is a great idea. Bruce Sexauer does it binding first for ones with mitered purfling, which I think is most of his guitars. So there's no concern regarding the router bit gimmung up the celluliod? Or does it cut well with a router. I'm assuming the latter. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Mon May 02, 2011 3:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Butt Wedges and Binding Ledges |
Bogdanovich uses that method too. I tried it on my last two and found it a good way to do it. I have to use a magnifying visor though to get those tiny miters cut right. Not perfect by a longshot, but I was happy. Attachment: 7-16.jpg
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| Author: | Terence Kennedy [ Mon May 02, 2011 3:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Butt Wedges and Binding Ledges |
Thanks John, great ideas! |
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| Author: | nickton [ Mon May 02, 2011 3:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Butt Wedges and Binding Ledges |
nice one Waddy. 
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Mon May 02, 2011 3:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Butt Wedges and Binding Ledges |
Thanks Guys. That's the wedge? on #7. |
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Mon May 02, 2011 4:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Butt Wedges and Binding Ledges |
John Mayes wrote: Honduran RW? Nice looking axe. |
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| Author: | stan thomison [ Mon May 02, 2011 9:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Butt Wedges and Binding Ledges |
Binding then wedge and sort of like John |
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| Author: | John Mayes [ Mon May 02, 2011 9:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Butt Wedges and Binding Ledges |
Don Williams wrote: John Mayes wrote: Honduran RW? Nice looking axe. Yup! The endgraft is not cleaned up in that picture, but it is a nice set of Honduran. Heavy wood, but man does it ring. |
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| Author: | Arnt Rian [ Tue May 03, 2011 2:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Butt Wedges and Binding Ledges |
I've tried a few different methods (although not the Sexauer / Mayes et al. one yet), and here’s how I do it currently: I tack glue the side purflings to the end graft ones, and the top purflings first, then the binding. I find it easier to get nice miters when the purfling lines are done separately from the bindings, and the tack gluing is done to make things a bit more manageable. I use fish glue for all this, as I found that the CA glue I used for while, gives more visible glue lines. The water based glues swell the wood a bit, and this also helps with the fit. I clamp the miters temporarily with a short piece of binding material, and leave it taped on for a few minutes, just enough so the fish glue will hold things in place. The next step is to continue to glue and tape all purflings and bindings as usual.  Single purfling line miters on the back, like this one, I do the same way. 
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Tue May 03, 2011 9:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Butt Wedges and Binding Ledges |
Nice, Arnt! Here is one observation that I got from watching the Bogdanovich video on purflings and bindings. John makes a point NOT to glue the purfling miter joint. He says it will always show up black. If you leave glue out of that joint it will become more invisible. Any thoughts? |
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| Author: | John Mayes [ Tue May 03, 2011 11:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Butt Wedges and Binding Ledges |
WaddyThomson wrote: Nice, Arnt! Here is one observation that I got from watching the Bogdanovich video on purflings and bindings. John makes a point NOT to glue the purfling miter joint. He says it will always show up black. If you leave glue out of that joint it will become more invisible. Any thoughts? If you make a precise tight joint it will be invisible too |
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| Author: | Howard Klepper [ Tue May 03, 2011 12:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Butt Wedges and Binding Ledges |
Gluing the corner with Titebond helps, too. |
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| Author: | John Mayes [ Tue May 03, 2011 12:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Butt Wedges and Binding Ledges |
Howard Klepper wrote: Gluing the corner with Titebond helps, too. +1 Plus you can also use the method with the push pins and use thinned out HHG and it will wick pretty good and hold well seeing it's not load bearing. Also drys nice and clear. I normally just use CA but I make sure the joints are really good before doing it. |
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| Author: | Arnt Rian [ Tue May 03, 2011 5:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Butt Wedges and Binding Ledges |
I like fish glue because of its tremendous "tackiness", but Tite-bond contains water and has many of the same advantages. Hide glue is fine too, of course. If my miters are well done, there are no lines where the lines meet with any of these water based glues, but with CA it happens. No matter which glue you use, precise miters are a must. I haven't tried to intentionally leave the binding or prufling miters unglued, but if you do this on an instrument that will be colored with dyes prior to clear top coats, I can assure you that the dye will seep in between those parts and leave tell tale lines. That is why celluloid binding and welding the joints with acetone makes a lot of sense on such instruments. Another reason I like fish glue is that if I should get a gap between any of the components of the trim (very unlikely, of course...), it is usually easy to rectify with some heat, a bit of water and a few strategically placed clamps. I find it easier to do this with fish glue than any other glue I have tried. |
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| Author: | klooker [ Wed May 04, 2011 11:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Butt Wedges and Binding Ledges |
I just routed the ends of my first celluloid tortoise wedge - wedge installed first, then routed top & bottom edges to meet bindings/purflings. I was using a 1/4" spiral downcut bit that' s sharp and cuts clean binding ledges. I had to climb cut to get a clean cut on the tortoise. I don't know if this is common knowledge or if I'm using the wrong type of bit, but that's what I had to do. Kevin Looker |
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| Author: | fric [ Thu May 05, 2011 1:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Butt Wedges and Binding Ledges |
I first practice here then go to wedge fric |
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