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Ubeaut Hard Shellac
http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=32818		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  David Newton [ Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Ubeaut Hard Shellac
I'm just now trying this finish out on a couple of ukes, sacrificial lambs as it were.
It builds really fast, and I've had to adjust my french polish methods for it.
I don't like to throw away pads, so I'm just using folded cloths now.

Any others using this? What is your experience?
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ubeaut Hard Shellac
I have read complaints about checking as the finish hardens over the first few months.
Author:  David Newton [ Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ubeaut Hard Shellac
Me too, but that was supposed to be the "old formula" the new one is supposed to correct that.
Author:  DennisK [ Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ubeaut Hard Shellac
One of the things I've wondered about it is whether you can do invisible repairs if it ever wears through or you need to patch a ding or whatever. Since it can't be dissolved again after it's allowed to fully dry, any repair would be adding a new layer on top, rather than blending into the old layer. But is it visible? I assume it would have no trouble sticking to the existing layer, at least.

The other reason I haven't tried it is the short shelf life on a large bottle. No way I could build fast enough to make it through one of those. This is one of the reasons I love shellac flakes and hide glue :) Also, the denatured alcohol in it makes me slightly afraid, although being that it's in a somewhat concentrated form, the amount of methanol exposure is probably negligible.

For the pad problem, you could try wrapping the cloth around an eraser like this guy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYSm9pEereg&feature=player_detailpage#t=132s. Gets into tight spaces, plus should be easy to clean off the bit of shellac residue when you're done for the day. Or just let it dry on there and replace the eraser if it ever gets thick enough to cause trouble. Looks like a Gum eraser he's using. I have lots of those for artwork, but haven't tried one as a polishing pad yet.

Thanks for guinea pigging this stuff :) I'll be interested to hear how it works out in the long run, especially if you feel like doing any repair tests on scrap (hopefully no actual repairs will be needed!)
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ubeaut Hard Shellac
David Newton wrote:
Me too, but that was supposed to be the "old formula" the new one is supposed to correct that.


I also read that the new formula just delays the problem. But good luck!
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ubeaut Hard Shellac
I am not really surprised about the crazing. Perhaps related: 6 months ago I experimented with adding some natural resins to my regular shellac, I guess i added about 5% sandarac and 2% benzoin which is really not much, others adding more. I also switched to walnut oil which is drying unlike olive. The result is that now the soundboard finish has a fair number of micro fractures. They are not really visible without looking very closely but it is bugging me. The finish feels very hard and brittle when tested with the nail. All together it seems to be the end of my resin experiments :) Oddly though, the rosewood back has nothing of this, even if a lot less seasoned than the spruce. Oh well.
Author:  David Newton [ Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ubeaut Hard Shellac
Yes, well, I don't know how to experiment with a "new" product, unless I use it on an instrument. The uke is a gift to a relative's child, I doubt there will be any complaining if it crazes, and I will be able to check it over time. The other, I'll be only doing the neck with the hard shellac.

You know what the kicker is? I don't like the smell, feel, and how the shellac goes on. There is a distinct chemical smell that bodes of evil.
I quit lacquer for the same reason.

As far as Sandarac goes, my personal guitars finish has a 20% component, and it is entirely successful, after several years.
Of course, it has not traveled far...
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ubeaut Hard Shellac
Hmmm. I have this on two guitars, one finished with buttonlac the other with seedlac. It's not bad but it is there. Not random checks, but tiny fractures 1-2mm long in between winter lines. Maybe it is the oil then. Or the slightly thicker than usual finish. Both requested a nitro-like result so I rubbed at them a big long lot.

Sorry for the hijack! :P
Author:  TonyFrancis [ Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ubeaut Hard Shellac
Howard Klepper wrote:
David Newton wrote:
Me too, but that was supposed to be the "old formula" the new one is supposed to correct that.


I also read that the new formula just delays the problem. But good luck!


Howard, if you have not used the product or tested it, please don't scaremonger people here with second hand knowledge. It is not fair to the manufacturer who has done a tremendous amount of refinement of the product, and is genuinely interested in the needs of our industry.

'Hard Shellac' is a wonderful "new-old-fashioned" product that could be a really great option for a lot of folks. You of all people should know that the 'who, what, when, where and how' any finish is applied can make all the difference in finishing results.
Author:  Bill Tolan [ Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ubeaut Hard Shellac
Hi - I've used u-beaut on 8 guitars over the last 2 years and have not had a problem. I do several seal coats with regular shellac (flakes dissolved in alcohol) and do the pumice pore filling. Then I do 7 - 8 bodying sessions with the u-beaut, spirit off, and let it gas out for several hours before another session. Then I do many glazing sessions with a 1# cut - I have not seen crazing, or really any difficulties with the resulting finish. I do wear gloves and a wear a respirator, as the fumes are nasty.
If anyone has experience with this stuff other than mine, I'd be eager to hear. But so far so good. Bill.
Author:  Clay S. [ Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ubeaut Hard Shellac
I did not find Howard's remarks "scare mongering". He simply stated what he read. And he stated that he read it, not that he had used the product. If he stated where he read it, that would be even more informative, but many times I read things and don't remember the source.
I was not aware that Ubeaut hard shellac was developed specifically for musical instruments. It may have many fine qualities which we would like to take advantage of, but I would also like to find out the potential down sides.
Author:  David Newton [ Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ubeaut Hard Shellac
The reports that Howard voiced were well-known to me, from a long thread at the Mandolin Cafe. Several very respected builders had experienced crazing, and stated that Ubeaut never acknowledged the product's shortcoming at the time, but did change the formulation "NEW IMPROVED FORMULA with added plasticiser to combat crazing" (from their website).

If the new formula does or does not exhibit this or any other shortcoming, I don't expect the producer to tell me, I have to rely on word of mouth, and Howard's word is pretty valuable to me, even if he has, as do we all, feet of clay.

No hijack, Alexandru, in fact what a better place to discuss sandarac, or any other ingredient. I'm back to olive oil from Walnut oil, it seems to work better, that's all.
Author:  Kim [ Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ubeaut Hard Shellac
I think it only fair to mention in this thread that the original formulation of Hard Shellac was never marketed for use on instruments. As I recall it was targeted mainly toward wood turners however it was adopted with varying degrees of success by some instrument builders. Eventually some of them did report crazing after a period of time yet others had not had the same issue.

I think the general consensus was that this crazing was quite possibly the result of excessive product build between coats which is something known to causes problems for many finishes. As the product on the surface cross links and polymerised more rapidly when exposed to the air, it shrinks back becoming harder and more brittle. If this hard outer layer still has softer un-cured product between it and the wood below, then expansion and contraction of that wood can 'slide' the harder finish off of the softer product causing wrinkles or crazing.

Neil, the guy who makes Hard Shellac and runs the Ubeaut Woodworking Forums in AU had got wind of the fact that 'some' people were using his product for instruments and were having these issues. As I understand he then added some plasticisers to the original formula to make the product more suitable for instruments builders and I have heard that this has lifted the success rate...but as Tony has suggested, nothing will fix bad application through lack of understanding...too thick, too quick, too bad. :(

I think this is another one of those luth'in thangs..if just one person manages to get excellent results from a product and you don't, its probably not the product precious. ;)

Cheers

Kim
Author:  David Newton [ Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ubeaut Hard Shellac
The company is certainly promoting the product for instrument use.
Because I'm currently using the product, I have read everything I could find, both on and off the company website.
The company mentions an extended data sheet for application, but I only found a short page, with no info on avoiding crazing, or much "schedule" at all.
If there is something on a back page, I would appreciate seeing it.
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ubeaut Hard Shellac
Funny but I thought I like walnut better. Maybe I actually liked the raw shellac more (it was a first with both)
I managed to get a sort of poor attempt photo, that's the best i can do. That is some finely grained spruce. I think it is interesting to see how the shellac shrunk to reveal not just the winter lines (which is visible to the naked eye with most thin finishes) but even the perpendicular medullary striations!

Anyway as you can see its nothing big, although there a zillion of these all over; maybe I am just splitting hairs.
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ubeaut Hard Shellac
TonyFrancis wrote:
Howard Klepper wrote:
David Newton wrote:
Me too, but that was supposed to be the "old formula" the new one is supposed to correct that.


I also read that the new formula just delays the problem. But good luck!


Howard, if you have not used the product or tested it, please don't scaremonger people here with second hand knowledge. It is not fair to the manufacturer who has done a tremendous amount of refinement of the product, and is genuinely interested in the needs of our industry.

'Hard Shellac' is a wonderful "new-old-fashioned" product that could be a really great option for a lot of folks. You of all people should know that the 'who, what, when, where and how' any finish is applied can make all the difference in finishing results.


Tony, I made a very simple, factual, and true statement. It ought to be clear that I was saying what I had read, because I used the words "I also read." I made this statement in the belief that David would rather have more information than less, and that he is intelligent enough to understand what he reads. If that is scaremongering, then I have been misunderstanding that word. My primary concern is for David and that he not waste the time it takes to do a finish.
Author:  Laurent Brondel [ Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ubeaut Hard Shellac
I think Howard has been misunderestimated.
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ubeaut Hard Shellac
Laurent Brondel wrote:
I think Howard has been misunderestimated.


That is my secret advantage.

Here's a first hand account re the reformulated U-beaut, if that is what is needed:
http://woodwithstrings.blogspot.com/200 ... itten.html
Author:  AlBDarned [ Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ubeaut Hard Shellac
thanks for the informedumucation.
Author:  mqbernardo [ Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ubeaut Hard Shellac
my missus also underestimates me, i feel ya.


and sorry for silly off-topic chatter, it keeps accumulating in my left-to-right brain ducts. :)
Author:  SteveVA [ Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ubeaut Hard Shellac
Hi Folks,
Thought I would chime in on this one. I've used U-Beaut for my last several builds and have not had any problems at all. I usually mix about 4 ounces at a time with a ratio of roughly 1/3 shellac to 2/3 alcohol. I use only 100% pure denatured alcohol and I don't add any addititonal ingredients. David, you're right about changing the technique. First, I have found no need to apply any additional alcohol to the pad as many do in normal French Polish. Secondly, I use very little oil on the pad; again, it simply isn't needed. Lastly, don't try to "body" too quickly; this stuff needs a little time to cure. I don't apply more than 3 coats a day. I've heard of some builders bragging about "bodying" in 2 days with U-Beaut. I don't recommend that at all. It takes me about 2 weeks to apply the finish and then I let it sit for a week before buffing it out. I've found the finish to be durable and produce a deeper lustre than the normal French Polish. Hope this helps.
Author:  David Newton [ Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ubeaut Hard Shellac
Thanks Steve,
Was this the new formula?
How long have you had a guitar finished? Have they traveled to other climates?
Author:  Kim [ Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ubeaut Hard Shellac
David Newton wrote:
The company is certainly promoting the product for instrument use.



Kim wrote:
I think it only fair to mention in this thread that the original formulation of Hard Shellac was never marketed for use on instruments.

Neil, the guy who makes Hard Shellac and runs the Ubeaut Woodworking Forums in AU had got wind of the fact that 'some' people were using his product for instruments and were having these issues. As I understand he then added some plasticisers to the original formula to make the product more suitable for instruments builders and I have heard that this has lifted the success rate...but as Tony has suggested, nothing will fix bad application through lack of understanding...too thick, too quick, too bad. :( Kim


No suggestion in that that Hard Shellac is not now being marketed as an instrument finish...just stated that the first formulation was not. As for schedule, my comments were based upon discussion of the first iteration of Hard Shellac on this and other fori and what had been done by the manufacturer to address that issue plus an understanding of one of the basic rules of finishing being that the application of too much product in successive coats for just about 'any' finish, is an invite for crazing issues to occur down the track.

Cheers

Kim
Author:  DennisK [ Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ubeaut Hard Shellac
Filippo Morelli wrote:
I thought Neil came on the OLF a few years back and answered questions. Am I remembering incorrectly?

Filippo

You mean this one? http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=29208
Author:  SteveVA [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 5:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ubeaut Hard Shellac
Hi Folks,
Okay, back online...As far as which formula I've used I can't say. I just checked and my last 6 builds have been with UBeaut so that translates to roughly a year a half and I'm into my second bottle and I don't see any difference. I did experiment with it before I used it on an instrument and, as I stated previously, it doesn't behave quite the same as plain old shellac. I found that if you use additional alcohol on the pad the finish takes too long to build resulting in far too many coats with little success. I also found that if I used any more than a dab(there's a technical term for you) of oil the finish can get cloudy and doesn't spirit off as easily as in normal French Polish. In addition, when using UBeaut I use it for the wash coat as well. I know some builders prefer to use plain shellac for the wash coat but I prefer not to mix the two. I can't honestly say if it makes a difference one way or the other but that's what I do and it works.
As far as its durability in different climates I can only attest to what we get here in central VA. I'm in the Piedmont plateau region and it's hot and humid in the summer and cold and dry in the winter. I haven't seen any changes in the finish up to this point nor have I received any complaints from anyone that has one of the guitars. One other note, UBeaut is a much clearer finish than super blond shellac. My observation, up to this point, is it doesn't have a tendency to "amber" much at all. I know some traditional builders like the aging effect of shellac but my preference is toward clear. Again, hope this helps.
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