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| Most difficult part of the building process (opinions please http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=32820 |
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| Author: | valleyofelah [ Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Most difficult part of the building process (opinions please |
So far I've built eight guitars and am getting to the point where I really want to step up my quality. There are two points that have been a huge struggle on every one of my builds, and I'm wondering what others out there find to be the most difficult parts. For me, it comes down to binding and finish. I have had binding gaps on every one of my guitars, which then translates into having a bunch of drop fills to do in my finish. I feel like if I could just get my binding better, then the finish would go easier as well. So what do you struggle with? |
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| Author: | Dave Fifield [ Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Most difficult part of the building process (opinions please |
Ditto....binding! I like the binding idea that Mr. Mottola just had published in the GAL magazine - might give that a try. Dave F. |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Most difficult part of the building process (opinions please |
I'd say the most difficult part for me is getting the desired tone I am after, especially in classical guitars. As for construction over all I'd agree with you on the finish. I really hate finishing(unless it comes out real good  ) but I still have high hopes that one day I'll at least be comfortable with it. A lot of the other processes simply come down to having the right tools for the job.
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| Author: | DennisK [ Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Most difficult part of the building process (opinions please |
Protecting the top during construction. Carving braces, the wood chips get under it and dent it all up. Anything involving tape risks peeling up fibers, especially if you forget which side is which on the runout direction. I like Ervin Somogyi's cardboard shield technique, except that it would need a full seal around the edge to make sure junk doesn't get under it, and that would be hard to take off and put on, and I like being able to tap on it constantly to get a reading of the sound. Another part I hate is notching linings for braces, trying to get the depth absolutely perfect. |
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| Author: | alan stassforth [ Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Most difficult part of the building process (opinions please |
The whole process is a pain in da butt. For me, binding is the hardest part, starting with " oh, let's take a router to this closed up box I've been working on!" It's getting easier for me, because I'm going with thinner and narrower binding. I like the look better too. .050" x 3/16". Rosettes are up there too. Finishing is my 3rd least favorite, until I'm finished with it. Worst thing about finishing for me is, "oh, I didn't notice that". |
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| Author: | Marcus [ Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Most difficult part of the building process (opinions please |
Finish and setup for me. |
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| Author: | Tom West [ Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Most difficult part of the building process (opinions please |
Andrew: Not sure what type of binding your using,wood or plastic.I have never used plastic,only wood. Learned to install it by roping around the body and have used that method for years. Most folks now bind using tape. Not sure if I could get a tight fit using tape but lots of folks do an excellant job and it is less labor intensive. If you use tape and are getting gaps may roping may be the way to go for a try. For either method clean even ledges are required to get good results. After cutting ledges with the router I go over the ledges lookin for any flaws and clean them up with a file and chisle. Tom |
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| Author: | valleyofelah [ Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Most difficult part of the building process (opinions please |
Thanks Tom. I've tried it both ways and had the same results. I always file the ledges before hand as well. The problem I have, it seems, is that with the shaping of the sides for the top and back, the binding doesn't want to follow the channels very well. By the time I get the binding all the way around, there is always a gap right at the waist where the sides are the tallest. Every time it's the same and it drives me crazy. I use wood binding, and it is thicker than typical, which is probably the reason I can't flex it in. I like the look of a thicker binding, but maybe I just need to do a thinner binding and see if that makes things easier. I also really enjoy doing rosettes. Alan which part of rosettes don't you like? |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Most difficult part of the building process (opinions please |
wood is problematic for gaping as compared to plastic. When it comes down to it binding is part of that fit and finish issue that is more difficult to overcome for many . I cannot stress PATIENCE enough or the right tool for the job. Finish is all about proper prep. I stopped using shellac and use only components from the same manufacturer to avoid compatibility issues. Short cuts just don't work when it comes to the final fit and finish. I think I tried every binding configuration out there. It wasn't until the binding jigs became affordable and available that it made tooling out of the question. A proper tool is worth the money . As finish goes , it isn't as easy as it appears. There are so many things that can go wrong. A good spray gun and finish environment control can mean the difference between pro look and looks like crap. Dry fit and breaking the inside corner to help binding lay in the channel better. Building guitars looks hard , but it's harder than it looks |
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| Author: | Burton LeGeyt [ Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Most difficult part of the building process (opinions please |
Binding gaps made me crazy as well. I am happy now using the surgical tubing, it has all but eliminated that problem for me. I run the glue around 3/4 of the slot, rough tape in both pieces of binding and then wrap wrap wrap the tubing. Start at the waist and move out, it will solve the gap problem there which was always an issue for me when using the tape. Everyone else gives great suggestions as well, definitely I go back over the ledges after routing and clean them as best I can. Breaking the inside edge of the binding also really helps. I agree with keeping the top clean!!! I am always steaming a little dent out at the end no matter how hard I try to work very cleanly. The most difficult part for me is keeping the full concentration necessary to do my best work all the time. John Osthoff once said at an NEL meeting that the last 5% is 95% of the work and I have not forgotten that. I find a real difference in my work when I am totally keyed in and focussed (and well rested, etc....) It is hard to maintain that! Especially after already working a full day somewhere else. |
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| Author: | Mark Tripp [ Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Most difficult part of the building process (opinions please |
Quote: Dry fit and breaking the inside corner to help binding lay in the channel better. I completely agree with this. If you are binding with wood, having the profile of the binding conform to the profile of the guitar is imperative. Pay particular attention to the waist area. When I am dry fitting, I make sure the waist area fits absolutely perfectly, and does so for three to four inches either side of the center of the waist. If you do this, you shouldn't have any problem with gapping in this area. I use tape, and always have, so I can't speak to other methods. I do make sure I press the binding in firmly. Very firmly! And apply similar tension to the tape. My hands hurt after binding a guitar, even though my dry fitting is very good. I want to be dang sure nothing pulls away. Never had a gap problem. -Mark |
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| Author: | Chris Pile [ Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Most difficult part of the building process (opinions please |
Always hated routing for binding - the actual binding work was OK. |
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| Author: | Tom West [ Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Most difficult part of the building process (opinions please |
Andrew: If you use a disc to shape your top sides rather then a flat top your binding has to bend two ways. One to take the outline of your guitar and vertically because of the high point at the waist. This becomes more of a problem depending on both the height and thickness of your binding. I like a bit thicker binding but find I have to cut down a bit on height of the binding to let it go over that hump easier. This hump effect is also greater on guitars that have a narrow waist in comparison to the upper and lower bouts. Tom |
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| Author: | WudWerkr [ Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Most difficult part of the building process (opinions please |
Well I would have to say based on my " meager " experience that it falls in this catagory Worst ! " Finish " by the time i get it looking like i want i have buffed through the Laq in at least 1 spot . I have done this ( 3 ) times Frusterating ! " Binding " for all the listed reasons , mainly gaps ! Aggrivating ! " Neck Tennon Joint " Have yet to get one lined up right on first attempt ! |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Most difficult part of the building process (opinions please |
A tip on binding that works for me: First of all of course bend the binding as close as possible, if there is a little gap in your binding then as you start to rope it up this gap creates a systematic error (if you will...) and pushes the bulge along the edge till it finds a happy spot to stay there. When you bend the binding tape it in place, I leave it there over night and then touch it up on a hot pipe. While it's taped up and looks good make a pencil mark across the top of the binding right to the top of the guitar. Then when you remove it to glue up the edge you will know exactly where to place it such that all the curves line up. I tape it in place with a few pieces of tape then rope it starting at the waste. |
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| Author: | Terence Kennedy [ Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Most difficult part of the building process (opinions please |
Toughest part? I will echo previous posters, it's no contest--finishing. |
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| Author: | Mark Groza [ Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Most difficult part of the building process (opinions please |
Finishing for me. It just takes longer than the other operations and that drives me nuts 
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| Author: | Link Van Cleave [ Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Most difficult part of the building process (opinions please |
[quote="Todd Stock" My binding and purfling work cleaned up when I started using rubber bands on a net shape caul to provide downward and inward clamping pressure,[/quote] Todd, care to elaborate on the net shaped caul part. I am not picturing this. Thanks, Link |
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| Author: | Alexandru Marian [ Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Most difficult part of the building process (opinions please |
I get nervous and procrastinate the steps that are potential disasters, such as rosette and binding routing and installations. A slipped chisel or binding gap can ruin a guitar completely. Gaps are really not an option unless 1 hair wide... Other than this, after 4 years and 12 guitars I feel technically-confident about all steps of the process, although I am still very slow and inefficient. I am happiest in the week or so when I figure out where to stop the top thinning, select and glue the bracing, and voice it. Also very happy in the first week or so of first string-up I glue the bridge before final binding smoothing, fret leveling, surface scratch pimping and finish prep and rubbing and all that. The neck is very roughly carved just enough to make it somewhat playable. Once I hear how it sounds I lose interest completely in finishing it. Taking the strings off, cleaning it up and polishing it probably takes me longer than building it Deep down I only care about the sound, although I must admit it is a pretty nice moment when the customer comes for delivery and takes the shiny completed instrument out of the case...
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| Author: | Andy Birko [ Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Most difficult part of the building process (opinions please |
I'm not a particularly prolific luthier or anything like that but I've managed to get binding gaps down to a minimum or zero on my last 3 or 4 builds. I now find that the only thing that's causing problems is if I have a discontinuity in the binding channel from poor technique with my binding machine (I use the drawer slide kind). I've had success with the following two methods: 1) Install wood binding with HHG. for this, I work about 2 to 4" as a time and press and hold the binding in place until it doesn't need clamping anymore. Some stew mac tape in difficult spots helps here too. Once that parts set, I moved on to the next segment. Any gaps are apparent right away and can be fixed right away. 2) Using CA to install bindings which I've done much more often than method 1. Basically the binding is installed dry with strips of binding tape every inch or so. Once I've got everything including the purflings nice and tight, I flood the area in between the tape with super thin CA attempting to keep most of the glue out from underneath the tape. After that's dried for a while, I remove the tape and do the in betweens. This usually ends up in a lot of top cleaning as the CA seems to glue the tape adhesive to the top but gaps have been quite minimal. These methods aren't perfect but I thought I'd throw them out there for examination. |
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| Author: | mqbernardo [ Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Most difficult part of the building process (opinions please |
at my current level of expertise, the part that goes from choosing the wood until stringing the instrument. that part is difficult, i tell ya! |
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| Author: | Rick Davis [ Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Most difficult part of the building process (opinions please |
It's easier than ever to make a good-looking guitar; it's as hard as ever to make a good-sounding one. That said, I can offer this about wood binding: First, create a slight bevel on the narrow gluing edge. The channel doesn't always have a square inside corner (in fact, it rarely does). If the binding is perfectly square, that tiny fillet will create a gap between binding and side. Second, make sure the binding is flat on the back (the tall gluing surface). Often, bending will create slight facets and bulges. A few seconds with 80-grit will level and smooth these. Third, after gluing, use a heat gun and a little fresh Titebond to soften the glue and binding at any gaps. Clamp, rope, tape, rubber band, or whatever and let cool. You can't stretch the binding to fill areas that you've bridged but you can compress it to fit around cutaways and the upper bouts, as examples of areas that often have gaps. I work to get the binding as perfect as possible before gluing and during gluing. But I concentrate on getting it really perfect along the sides, knowing that I can tighten it against the back. If you use HHG or other non-thermoplastic glue, this won't work. That's one reason I use Titebond. |
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| Author: | Fred Tellier [ Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Most difficult part of the building process (opinions please |
My binding comes out good but I still find the routing process nerve wracking. There is something about putting a spinning blade to a completed box is hard on my nerves. I have never had an issue with this but still spend a couple days doing other tasks when the body is ready for binding to avoid facing it. This is where I am on my current 2 builds, I will route today, no more excuses all the other tasks are done, even my floor has been cleaned. Just one more coffee and I will start or maybe 2 more. |
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| Author: | woody b [ Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Most difficult part of the building process (opinions please |
Certainly not the most difficult, but the part I mess up is nuts. I'd done repairs and set ups for 30+ years, but I don't think I've ever made just ONE nut. I always do something to mess at least one up. It's usually something different each time. I screw up the slots, I screw up the bottom, I screw up the sides, I screw up the top. I even had one perfect, and let my buffer snatch it out of my hand and pitch it across the shop. I found it a year or so later. I once made a perfect banjo nut, with 5 perfectly spaced slots. (It was a 5 string banjo (LOL) Re, binding. I struggled with binding on my first few builds. For a perfect binding job, you need perfect channels. There's lots of methods, it was just a matter of finding the method, and tooling that works for me. With wood binding I use a stand with hooks for rubber bands to pull the binding tight. I glue with fish glue (because it sets slow) and tape, like most people, then put rubber bands around it until there's no gaps. I can easily see it, so I know where to put more pressure. There's pictures of my binding rig (as well as Todds) in this thread. http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=32718 My jig/fixture/whatever is kinda rough. I spent about 2 minutes making it. I got the idea from Kevin Gallagher (RIP) Plastic binding is easier, but I like wood binding. If a binding job isn't good it's simple enough to route it off and do it again. Finishing??????? Patience, good equipment, good material, and a good plan. Make sure the guitar is ready to finish before you start finishing. (this means fix any binding gaps, ect) |
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