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and a refret question
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Author:  jason c [ Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:47 pm ]
Post subject:  and a refret question
I just got an early seventies jazz bass in for a refret but I have some questions about it. Since it's early seventies the frets were installed sideways so they should come out sideways, however, this bass has a bound maple fingerboard so they can't come out sideways unless I cut channels in the binding for the tang to come through (which seems like a major PITA). I can't replace the binding, the owner doesn't want to spend the money or lose the "collectability" value. What's the best way to handle this?
Author:  Chris Pile [ Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: and a refret question
That sideways bull is a rumor started by Eddie Van Halen in an interview.
Refret as usual.
Author:  David Collins [ Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: and a refret question
I don't normally come by here, but was pointed to this topic and thought it may be worth posting.

Yes, the frets were installed sideways on standard Fender necks up through the early '80s, but I believe their bound boards were an exception and installed from the top (binding installation would have been quite a challenge of engineering after sideways installation).

In either case, even sideways installed frets can be removed from the top if you're very careful, though generally will not yield as clean results as side removal. In your case, top removal is pretty much the only option with the binding in place anyway, so regardless of how they went in, up is how they have to come out.

As to the owner not wanting to spend the money or lose the "collectability" value, this is their problem, not yours. Charge what you have to charge, and for a thick finish bound maple board, you should make sure to quote high before touching the frets. Even with scoring the finish and careful removal, the odds of getting some finish chipping are quite high on these. Add to that the fact that I've never seen a 70's Fender bass that didn't need the fingerboard leveled anyway, and I would quote for a full leveling and refinishing of the fingerboard. The good news is that the binding provides for a nice boundary for new finish to gracefully meet the old, but it's still a good deal of work.

If they don't want the board refinished, tell them you can't guarantee you'll be able to properly execute what work the bass really needs, and refer them to another shop (preferably one you really don't like).

Trust me on this. Even if there is a slim chance you may not need to refinish the board, you have to quote for it, and get their clear approval to proceed with this work if necessary. If they don't agree, you do not want their business. Trust me.
Author:  B. Howard [ Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: and a refret question
One of the guitars of mine I ruined learnig to refret was ruined because I believed that rumor. Took a punch and drove em out sideways, tried to put the new ones in that way, what a disaster.
Author:  David Collins [ Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: and a refret question
B. Howard wrote:
One of the guitars of mine I ruined learnig to refret was ruined because I believed that rumor. Took a punch and drove em out sideways, tried to put the new ones in that way, what a disaster.


There's no rumor here, it's about as well established historical fact of Fender production as you get.

Standard unbound necks, frets are best driven out from the side. You don't put them back in from the side though - that is what could lead to disaster. After sideways removal, new frets should be pressed in from the top as normal.

For those on Facebook, I put up a few pictures of the process there a few days ago.

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set= ... 609&type=1
Author:  David Collins [ Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: and a refret question
Just for reference, here's a 60's Fender I refretted some time ago which had previously undergone a partial refret (surely with frets removed from the top).

Image

Note the one on the left which I drove out sideways has no barb impressions anywhere, as thus far none have ever passed through the surface. The previously refretted slot on the right was actually about the cleanest of them all. I do wish I had taken more photos, but surface chipping from the prior partial job was much more prevalent than in the side-by-side shot I have here.
Author:  Chris Pile [ Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: and a refret question
Quote:
Yes, the frets were installed sideways on standard Fender necks up through the early '80s,


I was an authorized Fender service center in the 80's, and one of the first questions I asked when I called my rep there was about this. I was told it was BS, and believed them.

At any rate, I couldn't remove them from the side, or install them from the side... so I went with standard operating procedure on removal and reinstallation... from the top. And, yeah - the maple boards did tend to chip a lot requiring refinishing. That's where I learned to do CA finishing, which worked well, and speeded up the time spent in the shop.
Author:  theguitarwhisperer [ Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: and a refret question
Chris Pile wrote:
Quote:
Yes, the frets were installed sideways on standard Fender necks up through the early '80s,


I was an authorized Fender service center in the 80's, and one of the first questions I asked when I called my rep there was about this. I was told it was BS, and believed them.

At any rate, I couldn't remove them from the side, or install them from the side... so I went with standard operating procedure on removal and reinstallation... from the top. And, yeah - the maple boards did tend to chip a lot requiring refinishing. That's where I learned to do CA finishing, which worked well, and speeded up the time spent in the shop.


Reps don't always have their facts straight. In a company that big, they can't. The sideways fret installation is a historical fact, with witnesses. I've removed PLENTY of frets sideways, no problem. Just like the photos above, there are no barb piercing on these guitars. I've experimented and installed frets from the top, then tried driving them out sideways, and was not able to duplicate the appearance.
Author:  jason c [ Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: and a refret question
Thanks everybody. I have no doubt they installed them sideways and I actually enjoy tapping them out. I always tell them that fingerboard will more than likely need to be refinished if it's maple so he's fine with that. Actually I'm surprised that this is the first one I'm doing like this. There are a LOT of Fender players in this town and I've refret a ton of them but all the ones with binding that I've done have been really recent guitars. Another quick question though. This also has the black block inlays and there is an obvious ridge around them in the lacquer. These were actually inlayed and not painted, right? It almost feels like the inlays are in the lacquer if that makes sense.
Author:  David Collins [ Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: and a refret question
Thinking more about it, I'm more sure now that even the bound boards must have had the same side fret installation. I hadn't given it much thought before now because as already said, regardless of how they were installed, careful upward removal is still the least invasive given the alternative of removing the binding. I was thinking in line with the binding being installed on to the board before it was glued to the neck, but I obviously wasn't thinking of some obvious clues that say otherwise.

The binding channel is certainly routed in to the board after being glued to the neck, as testified to by binding beyond the fingerboard past the nut, and obviously on one piece necks. Duh. So most likely the frets were side-installed on the un-contoured neck and board as standard, then the binding channel cut in to the edge of the board, frets and all.

Sorry for the confusion, but as said, I simply hadn't given the issue much thought before now.

Good luck with the job, and remember - quote high. ;)
Author:  TonyFrancis [ Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: and a refret question
Its great to see you back here, David.
Author:  Fred Tellier [ Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: and a refret question
We miss your posts, check in more often. I checked out your facebook page and liked.
Author:  B. Howard [ Wed Sep 14, 2011 7:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: and a refret question
David Collins wrote:
B. Howard wrote:
One of the guitars of mine I ruined learnig to refret was ruined because I believed that rumor. Took a punch and drove em out sideways, tried to put the new ones in that way, what a disaster.


There's no rumor here, it's about as well established historical fact of Fender production as you get.

Standard unbound necks, frets are best driven out from the side. You don't put them back in from the side though - that is what could lead to disaster. After sideways removal, new frets should be pressed in from the top as normal.

For those on Facebook, I put up a few pictures of the process there a few days ago.

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set= ... 609&type=1



Ok, so what was the purpose of the sideways installation in the first place?
Author:  jason c [ Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:14 pm ]
Post subject:  and a refret question
I think Dan Erlewine said that it was very fast. The worker could completely install frets on a neck in under two minutes.
Author:  David Collins [ Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: and a refret question
B. Howard wrote:
Ok, so what was the purpose of the sideways installation in the first place?



That's a good question. If only someone had asked Leo how or why he arrived at this method while he was still with us...

While hammered or pressed frets were well established norms, it does seem a bit odd that he would go to such lengths to devise a method and equipment for installing frets from the side when traditional methods worked so well, and really quite efficiently. A skilled worker could indeed install frets very fast with this method, but I doubt it could really have been that much of a time saver compared to a plain old press.

Still, Leo always seemed intent on finding new and better ways for production, and maybe he just thought this made sense. Maybe he got frustrated with his first few, perhaps with frets coming loose due to poor hammering technique or soft maple boards, and just thought "there has to be a better way to keep them in"? Or maybe he tried pressing or hammering to begin with but couldn't keep some ham-fisted employee from crushing frets in to the soft maple?

Could be lots of other reasons, but whatever it was I'm sure it seemed to him at the time to be the best and simplest way to ensure quick and consistent production. As to what exactly inspired the method however, unless some old interviews or other evidence surfaces, we may be left only to our speculations.
Author:  David Collins [ Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: and a refret question
jason c wrote:
I think Dan Erlewine said that it was very fast. The worker could completely install frets on a neck in under two minutes.


I think it was Wayne Charvel who said he watched an entire board get fretted in something more like 30 seconds. I don't recall the exact number, but it was ridiculously fast (though he said the employee was kind of putting on a show, not working at normal pace).

I have 65 Strat coming in for a refret that I hope to get to next week. Maybe I'll try and shoot some better detail photos of the whole process there. I know it doesn't help with your particular bound maple board dilemma, but the sideways removal process always seems to draw a good deal of interest.
Author:  TonyFrancis [ Thu Sep 15, 2011 2:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: and a refret question
I have always thought it was a good way to secure a fret in a soft board. Any of the softer rosewoods, maples or koa and it makes sense. Unless you add binding to the equation.
Author:  jason c [ Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:24 am ]
Post subject:  and a refret question
I just thought I would add this to the record. The bound fingerboards were also installed sideways. Image
Author:  jason c [ Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: and a refret question
I also don't know why my pics always end up getting messed up when I do them from my iphone. idunno
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