Think of it this way...
If someone else showed this too you and asked your opinion...
What would you say (with your inside voice)?
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| Couple of Issues Bracing Top on #1 - What would you do? http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=33578 |
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| Author: | longdrive55 [ Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Couple of Issues Bracing Top on #1 - What would you do? |
Hi All, I glued on the bridgeplate and X braces for my first build yesterday (using Hot Hide Glue), but I had a couple of issues and I just wanted to get everyone's take on whether I should proceed as-is, start a new top or try to fix the top I've got. The first issue is that the edge of the bridgeplate (the long edge in the area of the lower bout) is curling up a bit and not firmly glued to the top such that I can just get the edge of a chisel underneath in a couple of spots. The bridgeplate is tucked underneath the X-braces and I believe that the rest of the plate is glued well. The bridgeplate curled because my first attempt to glue it resulted in a misplacement which prompted me to quickly remove the plate before the HHG set. I wiped the glue off the top and the bridgeplate with hot water, but the moisture resulted in this slight bit of curling to the edge when the plate dried. The second issue is that I slightly missplaced the upper leg of one of the X braces (about 1/4" or less) from the desired position. This time I didn't remove it completely and wipe off all the glue, I just grabbed it and slid it into place. The pieces were warm enough that the glue didn't gel and it hadn't completely tacked in spot. Also, I got a pretty good squeeze out from under the brace when I put the Go-Bars on it and it seems like it glued up well, but I wonder whether I got enough glue under there for this joint to hold. Well that's about it. I'd be interested in what you guys would do in a similar situation. I'd like to save the top if possible and since this is number one I was thinking I would just keep building this as-is and take my chances. I've removed a back brace by planing/sanding it off, but think this would be a lot harder with the softer spruce used on a top. Any thoughts/suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks, Erik |
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| Author: | Jim_H [ Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Couple of Issues Bracing Top on #1 - What would you do? |
What would I do? I would remove it, clean up the top and cut a new bridge plate. |
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| Author: | longdrive55 [ Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Couple of Issues Bracing Top on #1 - What would you do? |
Quote: Heat will release the hot hide glue. Just heat, remove, clean up. That said you'll have to assess why you didn't get a good glue up. Could be fit, but more likely the glue cooled too fast (early HHG user's typical challenge). Thanks for input Filippo. Can I just heat the braces/bridgeplate with a heat gun and use a chisel or putty knife to try and get under them or do I need a more localized heat source placed directly on the brace? Also, do I need to use any water to get the HHG to release? As for the problems with glue up, I think its because the plate had slightly curled after the first removal and my caul didn't cover enough of the bridgeplate to get pressure on that edge. I probably should have just cut a new plate before glue up, but it was getting late and I just went for it (without thinking about the consequences). Lesson learned. Erik |
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| Author: | Rod True [ Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Couple of Issues Bracing Top on #1 - What would you do? |
Be careful heating braces or the bridge plate, you can cause the joint in the top to open too if you're not careful. Brace stock is inexpensive and easy to plane off and start over... just sayin' |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Mon Sep 19, 2011 5:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Couple of Issues Bracing Top on #1 - What would you do? |
What would I do? On my first guitar? If I felt the X brace was solidly glued I would leave it. I would carefully trim the part of the bridge plate that was curled up and decide if enough was left that was properly glued down to support the bridge. And I would be more careful with the next one. I have seen too many old sloppily built guitars that sound great to worry about a slightly misplaced brace,or a bridge plate that is less than ideal. I have also heard a few hermetically clean constructions that sound like crap. As Rod mentioned it is possible to do more harm than good trying to fix a relatively minor mistake. |
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| Author: | crich [ Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Couple of Issues Bracing Top on #1 - What would you do? |
Will the corners of your bridge cover the X braces? Clinton |
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| Author: | runamuck [ Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Couple of Issues Bracing Top on #1 - What would you do? |
When you glue on a new bridge plate wet the top of the plate right after you apply glue to the bottom. That will help it not to curl. |
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| Author: | Jim_H [ Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Couple of Issues Bracing Top on #1 - What would you do? |
Think of it this way... If someone else showed this too you and asked your opinion... What would you say (with your inside voice)?
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| Author: | longdrive55 [ Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Couple of Issues Bracing Top on #1 - What would you do? |
Jim_H: I hear what you're saying....and the perfectionist in me agrees, but I think I stand more chance of screwing up the top completely by trying to remove the braces and bridgeplate. Clay_S: I think I'm kind of with you on this one. I know what my mistake is/was and I'm thinking it might be better just to push forward and get the build done......I've also heard plenty of great sounding guitars that look like there were barely holding themselves together. If it self-destructs such is life, but at least I get one under my belt and know what not to do next time. Crich: Yes Runamuck: Thanks for the tip. Thanks Guys |
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| Author: | alan stassforth [ Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Couple of Issues Bracing Top on #1 - What would you do? |
The strings are going to pull the bridge plate towards the top. So, move on!!!! |
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| Author: | Link Van Cleave [ Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Couple of Issues Bracing Top on #1 - What would you do? |
What would I do ? I would take it off and redo it. Why not, you can easily get both the braces and the bridge plate off without heat or water. A little chisel work and then a plane and scraper. Take you 10 to 15 minutes. This mistake is so early in the build and so easily fixable I don't see any reason not to fix it. It was enough of a problem to ask what we would do. It is funny , some folks say just leave it but if it was a gap with the binding I am sure they would say fix it. Well this is a major structural area of the guitar. You can't see it but it has a lot to do with the sound and integrity of the guitar. So early in the build to have something kind of funky. I think it pays to try to keep the funkys down to a minimum. They have a way of accumulating and then down the road they kind of add up. Doesn't make one happy. You will have enough funkys anyway, why start a build with a fairly big one ? ...... And why tuck the bridge plate ? That's my take anyway. L. |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Tue Sep 20, 2011 6:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Couple of Issues Bracing Top on #1 - What would you do? |
HHG is so repairable . As a Martin repair shop , this is actually a simple process . If you dampen the plate by keeping a wet sponge on it for about 15 minutes , then apply heat , you can use a cloths iron , you will get the glue to soften . I should tell you to make a gluing cawl in the shape of the plate . Now you will be able to work the plate off in about 2 minutes . Apply some HHG and clamp with the cawl. I use artist pallet knives they are more flexible that putty knives , though they are ok . Be sure to avoid cutting into the top |
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| Author: | Carey [ Tue Sep 20, 2011 6:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Couple of Issues Bracing Top on #1 - What would you do? |
Since you asked- I would *definitely* fix it, and not necessarily for to perfect the job at hand. |
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| Author: | truckjohn [ Tue Sep 20, 2011 6:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Couple of Issues Bracing Top on #1 - What would you do? |
The top bracing is one of the few key places where you can't have any gaps or loose joints where in other places you might just dribble some more super glue/hide glue into the gap or shim it with a bit of veneer... Don't do this on the top like you might on the bindings.... Reasons.. 1. Loose joints and bits not glued on buzz 2. Joints that weren't properly made pop loose 3. Loose/gappy joints leave dimples on your top when you string it up The top and the neck are under quite a bit of stress from the string pull... The top also moves quite a bit compared to other components like the back or heel block... On some of the other components - I would just tell you to move on and not worry about it.... Not here - make the glue joints on the top as perfect as you can.... They need to be firmly mated - not just full of glue... On the location of the X-brace leg... Check to make sure that the bridge wings still overlap the X-brace or it will leave funny looking dimples on your top... If one of the bridge wings no longer overlaps the X - redo your X-brace.... Thanks |
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| Author: | Dave Rickard [ Tue Sep 20, 2011 7:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Couple of Issues Bracing Top on #1 - What would you do? |
Fix it, I can't see any reason not to. |
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| Author: | longdrive55 [ Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Couple of Issues Bracing Top on #1 - What would you do? |
bluescreek wrote: HHG is so repairable . As a Martin repair shop , this is actually a simple process . If you dampen the plate by keeping a wet sponge on it for about 15 minutes , then apply heat , you can use a cloths iron , you will get the glue to soften . I should tell you to make a gluing cawl in the shape of the plate . Now you will be able to work the plate off in about 2 minutes . Apply some HHG and clamp with the cawl. I use artist pallet knives they are more flexible that putty knives , though they are ok . Be sure to avoid cutting into the top John, Thanks for the tip on removing the bridgeplate, but it is tucked under the X-brace. As others have suggested it seems like planing/sanding away the X-brace is the way to remove them without adversely affecting the top......though I'm a little leary of that as I have planed off a back brace and it seemed to require a good deal of sanding to get the back ready to glue again. I'm afraid that sanding would thin the top.......any reason to be concerned about that......or do you have any other suggestions on removing the X-brace? Thanks, Erik |
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| Author: | Rod True [ Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Couple of Issues Bracing Top on #1 - What would you do? |
Once you plane the brace off down to the glue line, switch to a scraper or a single edge razor blade, tape off the corners so you don't gouge the top and scrape the glue off. Do a quick sand once all the braces and bridge plate are removed. After the x-brace is off, you can remove the bridge plate as John mentioned, but be carefull about the top seam. |
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| Author: | longdrive55 [ Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Couple of Issues Bracing Top on #1 - What would you do? |
Rod True wrote: Once you plane the brace off down to the glue line, switch to a scraper or a single edge razor blade, tape off the corners so you don't gouge the top and scrape the glue off. Do a quick sand once all the braces and bridge plate are removed. After the x-brace is off, you can remove the bridge plate as John mentioned, but be carefull about the top seam. Thanks Rod. Looks like I've got some work ahead of me. Erik |
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