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Cedar for guitars http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=34388	Page 1 of 1

Author:	Joe Hill [ Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Cedar for guitars
I have about 15 two foot logs and a few 4'-3' of Blood Cedar from a tree we cut about 20 years ago when it died. The 15" thick logs have just been sitting under my carport since then. If I take them to a saw mill can I use them on my guitars? If so what pattern would be cut on these logs to get the best usage. They were intended for a cedar chest but I never built it. When you cut into the wood the outer 2"-3" rim is off white and the core or heart looks like the red you would see in spalted maple. I did use some for my window sills in my house. All that I have read does not talk too much about cedar.

Author:	Rod True [ Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Cedar for guitars
When you say 15" wide is that the radius or diameter of the log? If radius I'd say it's useable but if diameter I think it's not worth your time. Mind you, you could cut it up for linings....but those are pretty cheap to buy. Good cedar is easy to get at good prices so....

Author:	Joe Hill [ Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:57 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Cedar for guitars
That would be width measured across the midle not circumference. I had 5 cedars in all, two died; I cut one down the others are fine. The other cedar is two main branches about 160"circumference by <25 Linear feet.

Author:	Daniel Minard [ Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:36 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Cedar for guitars
I figure a three foot tree is about minimum for a decent yield. With the smaller trees, there will be lots of hidden knots & the grain lines near the centre are likely to be very wide. The smaller the tree, the more waste you make getting close to vertical grain. You certainly won't bet much joy trying to cut guitar tops from wood this size. You might be able to cut some Uke soundboards.

Author:	Joe Hill [ Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Cedar for guitars
I was thinking more of neck blanks, binding, kerfing, center strips and sides. But my real question remains "Is cedar a good wood for guitars?" I know it is great for chests Armoires and cabinets...but none of them need to produce an exquisite sound and tone.

Author:	Rod True [ Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Cedar for guitars
Cedar would not make a strong enough neck. Sides and bindings would be very soft and not a good idea IMO. Would be fine for linings (kerfing as you call it) and centre strips on a back, and is most commonly used for tops... not good for braces as strength to weight would render rather high and wide braces weighing much more than spruce... Cedar is soft and therefore limited in its use for guitars.

Author:	Joe Hill [ Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Cedar for guitars
Thanks Rod & Daniel, Well I guess that puts a crimp in my plans. I had thought of Cedar as a hardwood. I need a neck for a repair and thought, hey why not use the cedar it is free, save some money. The old adage "If it sounds too good to be true, it usually is". That blood red cedar would have made a great looking neck. In your opinion, Depending on the bracing; how would you say it would sound as a sound board? Are there positive qualities? If it is not a hardwood will it be able to hold the bridge with out buckling the face? I appreciate the way every one has generously imparted their wealth of knowledge. It is a wonderful thing to share and I for one soak it up like a sponge.

Author:	Rod True [ Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Cedar for guitars
Personally, I love cedar as a top wood. It needs to be well quartered though and stiff. Most leave it about 10-15% thicker than spruce tops and braces are generally the same. It dents very easily when working which can be one of the big down sides, but the sound from a well made cedar top guitar is beautiful as far as I'm concerned. Heck Jim Olson with Phil Keaggy & James Taylor's influence has made a strong arsenal of cedar topped guitars out there....

Author:	truckjohn [ Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:08 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Cedar for guitars
If it's the stuff I remember growing down in Florida - he is probably talking about Eastern red cedar - which is properly a Juniper.... not Western red cedar - which is not a juniper.... I would guess the stuff would make a pretty decent neck... It's usually hard enough.... If it were me - I would definitely use a good trussrod... The only trouble might be finishing it - it's pretty oily stuff... Anyway - there are some pretty good tutorials about cutting up small trees for tonewood (Tops, backs, and sides)... 15" diameter could probably yield you some 2 pc tonewood for smaller guitars - or 4 pc tonewood for larger guitars.... You usually start by splitting the log in half lengthwise - this lets you look at the split face - you can check out twist, wavey grain, swirl, knots, bark inclusions, metal, junk, etc.... If it split out pretty straight - you can then saw out a billet - make a cut about 1" on one side of the center... and the 2nd cut about 1" on the other side of the center.... Then, resaw this "Billet" into tops/backs.... If you want some really good backs/sides/necks wood - Australian pine (Sheoak), maple, hickory, oak, etc - are all good choices...

Author:	Joe Hill [ Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Cedar for guitars
Wow, you are not kidding about Australian pine that is tough wood. We had a Hurricane topple a large dead one out back. Used a Stihl 36" roller blade chain-saw to cut it up. We went from one side to the other cutting it as the tree was wider than the length of the blade. We would make about 2 and a half cuts then we would have to stop and sharpen it (this was a new blade). I wish I had saved some of it instead of a Bonfire, it burned for days. But I digress; the cedar here is not too bad to cut which correlates to what Rod said.

Author:	Mark Groza [ Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:22 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Cedar for guitars
Most mills have trouble milling short logs as you have as they have to be set on rails and held down with dogs. They usually have to be 4 ft. or longer, however a good chainsaw with a mill will work best. I have used cedar for top plates and like it alot. The last one i made is a walnut dread with a 3 piece cedar top and sounds great. Just make sure you cut your fingernails short when working around the top. Don't ask me how i know I would use the flat sawn stuff for laminated necks without worry. And for lining, it sure would smell good as well work there.

Author:	Joe Hill [ Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:57 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Cedar for guitars
That was one of my thoughts Mark; as soon as you open the case every one in the room would smell Cedar. I was also hoping for a contrast of the blood red heart, and white to capture a striking appearance. Blue and green abalone rosette inlay. yum, yum

Author:	Tim Mullin [ Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Cedar for guitars
Joe: your post struck my eye, because I've never heard the name "blood cedar", and I haven't been able to find it on any of the standard taxonomic lists. There are a couple of possibilities, but from your description (not sure where you're located), I'd agree with others that you're likely looking at what is more often called "eastern redcedar", Juniperus virginiana L. , i.e., a "true juniper". Although it is indeed a conifer (softwood), its wood is moderately heavy (similar to american sycamore, Platanus occidentalis L.), very stiff (think longbows) and remarkably stable after drying. Don't think I'd use it for soundboards, but for back/sides or for necks, it might actually be quite useful for building, provided you saw it correctly. You also won't have any moths where the guitar lives, as the fragrance repels moths, but some folks have skin irritations when they work with the wood. This stuff was heavily exploited through the first half of the last century for cabinetry and pencils, so not much left of a size large enough for instruments.

Author:	Joe Hill [ Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Cedar for guitars
Hi Tim, The reason I called it Blood Cedar; it is what they called it at the saw mill I brought the larger pieces to. I live in West Central Florida near Tampa. I have acres of cypress but use that for buildings like my barn/stable. Good wood if it is not in wet soil, Dry it will last forever with no bugs. Right now all I have is the Cedar and Pecky Cypress unless I take down a tree. I Need inspections and permits to drop most of the trees unless it is Sat. or Sun. Cypress would be too soft for guitar wood, don't you think? Joe H.

Author:	BobHowell [ Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Cedar for guitars
I have cut up a lot of logs to use in my shop over the years. Most have been turned into bowls and other turning objects, but I have cut a lot of small pieces for accent wood in boxes and other small projects. 5 years ago I had two 4 ftx18" walnut logs cut into 4" slabs with a chainsaw mill; to make bowls someday. I now have sawed a lot of them up and made dulcimers. Some will go into a guitar I am building. I used my 14" band saw with a riser block and a good blade. Saw off a 24-36 chunk and saw it down the middle with your chainsaw. Then you can get on your band saw and slice off any thing you fancy. A power planner is handy to flatten the bottom if your chainsaw work like mine is not the best. I'm sure you have eastern red cedar which is every where in FL and Ga and around the south. The knots are the problem and you can look at it and tell what you have. I have seen it paired with maple with great results. Bob Howell

Author:	Joe Hill [ Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:44 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Cedar for guitars
The Eastern Cedar you have seen is it white towards the outer and red towards the heart? When it is dry it looks the color of dry blood. If you sand, shave or plane it, put clear coating on, it is bright red. I need to get a picture and post it, From all accounts "It is Eastern Cedar" and WILL make a solid, good looking neck if I avoid all knots. Very Cool. Joe H..

Author:	John Arnold [ Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:44 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Cedar for guitars
I built this ERC OM in 1985. The top is incense cedar from California. The neck is African mahogany (Khaya)

Author:	Joe Hill [ Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:38 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Cedar for guitars
That is a very fine looking guitar much better than anything I could ever hope to do. What are the sound qualities of that wood combination in your guitar? Am I mistaken? It looked like the back and sides were a beautiful Cedar and the top Spruce. Thank you for taking the time to show one of your builds. It gives me something to shoot for.

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