There are sooooooooooooooooooooo many potential jokes in this thread Joe . I am gonna have to walk away !
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| A brass Nut http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=34553 |
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| Author: | Joe Hill [ Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | A brass Nut |
(NO PUN INTENDED) I picked up some brass nuts and saddle blanks to use on a 12 string repair. I know Cutting and shaping are not going to be a picnic. Will brass make for a nice nut and saddle combination? If I am correct, I will need to have the same weight-density to mass at both ends (the nut and saddle) for the strings in between to create greater sustain...Now this is what I have read, and I wanted to know if this is Gospel or Garbage. How would brass saddles work with the under saddle pickup/transducer? |
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| Author: | WudWerkr [ Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A brass Nut |
There are sooooooooooooooooooooo many potential jokes in this thread Joe . I am gonna have to walk away !
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| Author: | Tony_in_NYC [ Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | A brass Nut |
Brass nuts. Heh heh heh. |
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| Author: | B. Howard [ Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A brass Nut |
Back in the late 70's & early 80's, brass nuts were a common mod on strats with wammy bars. This was before locking trems. A drop of baby oil on each slot before you played and the strings slid through there real slick when you hit the wammy bar, guitars stayed in tune better. Brass was used because it held up to the wear better. Seemed to brighten the tone a bit to my ear. Gave a bit more sustain as well. Never heard or seen a brass saddle, though dad used to have a saying about brass brasseries.
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| Author: | Joe Hill [ Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A brass Nut |
Brian, Did that saying have anything to do with Winter ? |
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| Author: | B. Howard [ Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A brass Nut |
Joe Hill wrote: Brian, Did that saying have anything to do with Winter ? yes, and witches too........ |
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| Author: | David Newton [ Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A brass Nut |
I don't like brass nuts & saddles, but they used to be popular on acoustic as well as electrics. When I am shaping a bone nut or saddle on my disk sander, it doesn't burn my fingers like brass. I don't like any metal on my guitars, except tuners, frets, screws, truss-rods, neck attachment hardware, Oh OK. |
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| Author: | Quine [ Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A brass Nut |
Joe Hill wrote: (NO PUN INTENDED) I will need to have the same weight-density to mass at both ends (the nut and saddle) Huh?? what does weight-density to mass mean??  I don't think nut material has much effect unless you play mostly open strings |
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| Author: | Joe Hill [ Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A brass Nut |
Huh?? what does weight-density to mass mean Quine, If you have a bone nut and a brass nut, the size being the same, the brass nut will be heavier due to the density of the metal in the brass nut. Items having the same size (mass) do not necessarily have the same weight due to the density of the object. Mathematically, density is defined as mass divided by volume: *** m p= ---- * ** V where ρ is the density, m is the mass, and V is the volume. From this equation, mass density must have units of, a unit of mass per unit of volume. As there are many units of mass and volume covering many different magnitudes there are a large number of units for mass density in use. Hence the brass nut in conjunction with lets say bone or plastic would have a definite weight-density to mass difference. I think that if you had the strings between two brass objects it would sustain longer with a crisper sound than if you had mixed the brass nut with a bone saddle. I am trying to figure out also if the added weight on the sound board from the brass would affect the tone quality. I am not a scientist but this is the best way I can explain it. Try: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Density |
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| Author: | TonyKarol [ Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A brass Nut |
Ah .. to answer your question ..... maybe yes, maybe no .... The nut only affects the six open strings .. every other note is fretted, so it doesnt matter. Will it make a difference at the saddle, I would say yes, but is it more musical than bone ?? Just different, likely brighter, but the mass may kill some volume, which will likely affect sustain. So maybe it all cancels out .. you will just have to try it and see. Theoretical musings are great, but reality is where it happens. |
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| Author: | nyazzip [ Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A brass Nut |
i suspect brass isn't used for nuts due to its hardness; i could imagine it breaking lots of strings. also it is pretty ugly, and it will tarnish a nasty dark color in short order if it is not clear coated |
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| Author: | Joe Beaver [ Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A brass Nut |
Joe, (good name by the way) Since you already have them then a try is definitely in order. I suspect it will make the guitar a little brighter and easier to tune. If you don't like the end result you can always go to bone! As far as mixing them as in bone nut, brass saddle, it may come down to a mostly aesthetic consideration. |
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| Author: | Link Van Cleave [ Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A brass Nut |
Joe Hill wrote: Items having the same size (mass) do not necessarily have the same weight due to the density of the object Mass is not size, items having the same size would have the same volume. Weight and mass are for most practical purposes the same, at least in mundane terms. Mundane means of the earth or earthly by the way. Weight is gravities affect on mass and changes with differences in gravity etc. etc . You have the same mass on the earth as the moon but weight less on the moon. I would change your statement to "items having the same size do not necessarily have the same weight or mass due to the density of the object" Density is mass per unit of volume. L. |
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| Author: | Erik Hauri [ Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A brass Nut |
I've used a few on bass guitars, and one on an electric just for kicks. They are fine (and bright) for wound strings, but they are very tricky with the single-strand high B and E strings, if you don't have the slot exactly the right width the string will rattle in the slot. The result is a buzzy overtone - almost like a sitar - and killed sustain. With a bone nut you can just fill the slot with bone dust and CA, but it is difficult to fix on a brass nut. I've seen several cheap guitars with a jumbo fret stuck in the bridge as a saddle. |
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| Author: | Joe Hill [ Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A brass Nut |
Point taken Mr. Van Cleave.  Like I said, "I'm not a Scientest" thank you for the edification.
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| Author: | John Arnold [ Thu Dec 15, 2011 12:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A brass Nut |
Brass saddle = brighter (less bass), less volume, more sustain. Brass was popular in the late-1970's and early 1980's (Daion guitars, among others). However, I have yet to see one that did not sound better when the brass was replaced with bone. YMMV. |
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| Author: | Joe Hill [ Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A brass Nut |
Does any one know how the under saddle pickup would be affected by the brass saddle? IMHO, there would be a very solid connection between the saddle and the transducer. If they were popular in the 70's and 80's why did the popularity wan? Have I taken everything into consideration? Brass is a softer non-ferrous metal |
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| Author: | John Arnold [ Thu Dec 15, 2011 1:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A brass Nut |
I think using a brass saddle with a pickup would be a nightmare. Piezo pickups work by pressure, and the key is to have uniform pressure under every string. That means perfectly flat, mating surfaces. While the brass can be made flat, the bottom of the saddle slot is another matter. Even if it were perfectly cut, distortion can occur once the strings are tightened. The 'cure' (normally) is to use a soft saddle material (plastic, typically) that will conform to the shape of the slot. Quote: If they were popular in the 70's and 80's why did the popularity wane? My only advice is to try it and judge for yourself. If you like the sound, my feeling is that you are in a small minority. Quote: Have I taken everything into consideration? Brass is a softer non-ferrous metal It is also about 5 1/2 times as dense as bone. |
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