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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:43 pm 
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Koa
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Actually Trevor is an advocate of hand planing rather than thickness sanders. Except for the chisel mortice attachment for making the square hole in the heel for his neck attachment rod, there is really not much specialized tooling for his methods.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 4:15 pm 
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Alan Carruth wrote:
..... I asked him how Torres did it.


Apprentices? :)

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:59 pm 
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I just attended the three day course that Jeff Highland attended as well. Trevor is an amazing teacher and all round good bloke. There were 6 builders in the course and we all benefited immensely from the presentations and demonstrations that TG gave. If you would like to have a peek at just a little of what we were privileged to enjoy I have posted it herehttp://www.anzlf.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4002


John


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:05 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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What's a "bloke"?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:05 pm 
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doublepost

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:33 pm 
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theguitarwhisperer wrote:
What's a "bloke"?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloke

Whoops...I forgot I was on the American Forum:)


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:32 pm 
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At the risk of creating another thread within a thread, I would defintily agree with the premiss by allan that power tools are handy, but not always necessary. I can do a lot of guitarmakin procedures using hand tools only, but the power tools sure save time and energy. Thanks for the link on the guitar class trev gave .Perhaps one day trev will cross the pacific, and come do a class in the usa.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:34 am 
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We may be in luck.
From internet sources I believe he has been known to rack up a few air miles.
I know he has "lectured" in US and also UK, not neccesarily this particular talk.
Maybe he'll chip in here if he has any current plans.

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Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:21 am 
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ernie wrote:
At the risk of creating another thread within a thread, I would defintily agree with the premiss by allan that power tools are handy, but not always necessary. I can do a lot of guitarmakin procedures using hand tools only, but the power tools sure save time and energy. Thanks for the link on the guitar class trev gave .Perhaps one day trev will cross the pacific, and come do a class in the usa.

same here. nice to have a drill press and a small bandsaw, but far from mandatory.
Colin North wrote:
We may be in luck.
From internet sources I believe he has been known to rack up a few air miles.
I know he has "lectured" in US and also UK, not neccesarily this particular talk.
Maybe he'll chip in here if he has any current plans.
cool, i needed a good excuse to visit the UK anyway... if so i´ll have a really good one!

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:58 pm 
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Trevor and Gerard have produced a masterpiece with this set. It is so far ahead of anything out there already. I only hope that the way we talk about guitars becomes more methodical, scientific, based on measurable data rather than person hunches and will be completely devoid of 'belief'. You see it a lot, People say, "I can't explain why X is better than Y or even show it is better, but I just choose to believe it is" Belief is for god bothers. With guitars, everything is theoretically provable and proper controlled blind testing can account for what isn't. Alan C has mentioned before the magical ability of guitar builders and players to delude themselves into thinking they can hear differences that don't exist. The book gives us measures to use to analyse a guitars various qualities that don't suffer from bias. And then gives us ways to improve on what we have built.

Best quote, "Until you have read this book, you cannot have a fully informed conversation about guitars"

Alan C, what are your issues with the book, I have seen you make this comment that there are a few 'issues' with it before but I have never seen you set out your argument with what you think is wrong. It would benefit everyone to hear your views.

Cheers
Dom


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:27 pm 
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Interesting, now Torres, Fleta, Hauser, Romanillos, don't know anything about guitars, and can't discuss them intelligently. BS! Some people like the science, some don't. Some build to touch and ear, others by measuring and recording. Neither is more ignorant than the other.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:49 pm 
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+1. waddy. To balance both sides of our brain we need a functioning left as well as right brain.Both of you are correct, We need emotions , and feelings to sense what is correct in a guitar, but we can also use scientific data , and a lot of math to back up our results.Working the 2 sides of our brain ,we can hopefully make good gtrs.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:01 pm 
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Dom Regan wrote:
Best quote, "Until you have read this book, you cannot have a fully informed conversation about guitars"


Dom - if I may ask, who are you quoting here? Thx


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:07 pm 
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Dom Regan wrote:
Trevor and Gerard have produced a masterpiece with this set. It is so far ahead of anything out there already. I only hope that the way we talk about guitars becomes more methodical, scientific, based on measurable data rather than person hunches and will be completely devoid of 'belief'. You see it a lot, People say, "I can't explain why X is better than Y or even show it is better, but I just choose to believe it is" Belief is for god bothers. With guitars, everything is theoretically provable and proper controlled blind testing can account for what isn't. Alan C has mentioned before the magical ability of guitar builders and players to delude themselves into thinking they can hear differences that don't exist. The book gives us measures to use to analyse a guitars various qualities that don't suffer from bias. And then gives us ways to improve on what we have built.

Best quote, "Until you have read this book, you cannot have a fully informed conversation about guitars"

Alan C, what are your issues with the book, I have seen you make this comment that there are a few 'issues' with it before but I have never seen you set out your argument with what you think is wrong. It would benefit everyone to hear your views.

Cheers
Dom


Hi Dom, with all due respect, the proof is in the pudding. Now I haven't heard one of Trevor or Gerard's guitars, but it doesn't matter. Because the fact is that everyone's "pudding" is different. I can pretty much guarantee you that my definition of a great guitar is different from yours. Every analysis suffers from "bias." It's kinda the nature of what we do.

If there's a platonic ideal out there for the perfect guitar, I'm afraid I've missed it.

Regards

Steve


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:09 pm 
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I don't see anywhere it was said Gore/Gilet are the final word nor that earlier masters opinions and methods are now useless. Looking at anything from a scientific perspective can only advance a process. Science is only a method of measuring and explaining functions in the world around us. Myth, VooDoo, and unsubstantiated beliefs get people nowhere and often hurt or stagnate understanding. Understanding why you get hungry, (of course because without it you would die) does not lessen the joy of a great meal how ever you define great meal. Understanding and describing how an instrument can be made using methods other than intuition and endless trial and error does not in any way negate the talent of someone gifted in those intuitive abilities.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:03 pm 
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There is no arrogance or accusations of ignorance in Trevors books or in person.
He is very respectful of those who have gone before.
For example there is a Fleta design detailed in the build volume.
He does give methods for optimizing that build so that it will hopefully be a good or great "Fleta"


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:13 pm 
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Orion Thomas wrote:
..... Looking at anything from a scientific perspective can only advance a process. .....


Not sure I agree with the word "only" here. Depends on the quality of the science, the complexity of the process, and the definition of "advance". Science can surely advance a process but as long as humans are doing it and interpreting it, it will still be subject to human foibles. When looking for the needle, it can be very good at making the haystack bigger.....

BTW, I'm not talking about the books which I know nothing about.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:19 pm 
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Jeff Highland wrote:
There is no arrogance or accusations of ignorance in Trevors books or in person.
He is very respectful of those who have gone before.
For example there is a Fleta design detailed in the build volume.
He does give methods for optimizing that build so that it will hopefully be a good or great "Fleta"


Very true Jeff...that was my impression too and the example you site backs that up:)

John


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:26 pm 
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Depends on the science. Not having read these books (although I surely intend to once I can come up with the scratch), I can't stipulate, but I will assume it's sound.
That being said, Ovation guitars were produced through science as well, and those (IMHO) are some of the crappiest sounding guitars I think I've ever heard. My sincere apologies to the Ovation fans out there, but that's my opinion. Kaman Guitars obviously thinks they have something there. They did a lot of research, produced something they thought sounded good.
What science can't capture is the subjective aspect of what sounds "good". Everyone has their opinion, and even experienced players don't all gravitate to one particular sound.
And then again, guitars produced through science and research don't all sound the same either, and who's to say that a guitar that has been tuned wouldn't sound better if it hadn't been tuned? How would one know for that particular instrument?
And again, what if a luthier, through scientific investigation, arrived at the conclusion that their best sounding guitars are ones that have been produced through a process of very precisely dimensioned materials, by carefully recording the dimensions of the materials they've built with through the years, without tuning at all? Is their science valid? If not, why not, especially if they consistently produce great sounding instruments?

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:33 pm 
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I certainly do not question the purpose of the books, nor do I criticize anyone who chooses the scientific construction technique and I would never question Trevor's integrity, as he has been a generous contributor on a number of forums. And, I may choose to purchase the books at some point. I have a friend who has them, and I have read portions. However, don't ever tell me I can't have an intelligent discussion about guitars until I have read someone's book. There are many approaches to making excellent guitars. Some folks do it by science, and some do it by the touchy feeley method. Both methods can produce great guitars.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:17 pm 
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A bigger haystack is what science is about. Answers always bring more questions. I'm not a fan of Ovation guitars either and don't know about their design history but the instruments timbre is the end result good or bad. I would assume they were happy with their end result. Sound is very subjective as I think most if not all of us agree. The idea of using science, in this instance, as a tool is merely a way to measure and describe your process in order to accurately repeat the results you find pleasing. If tapping and shaving until you find the sound you are after works fine that is your process but it is also a very difficult thing to pass on to someone else. If you weigh, measure and analyze the various woods, braces and plates and it produces the sound your after kudos to you. It is certainly an easier way to pass your talent on. I seriously doubt someone with a tin ear is going to produce a great sounding guitar regardless of the method used. In the end you have to have taste in what your after and know it when your there.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:24 am 
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CharlieT wrote:
Dom Regan wrote:
Best quote, "Until you have read this book, you cannot have a fully informed conversation about guitars"


Dom - if I may ask, who are you quoting here? Thx

That´s a quote from the back cover of the book - allegedly from the authors, one has to conclude. it´s that kind of hyperbolic statement made to impress and get the hype rolling that i (and others as Waddy, apparently) have trouble digesting. the inside of the book, thankfully, proved much more palatable.

cheers,
miguel.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:58 am 
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Interesting thread this one.
I feel it's good to read whatever you can even if it's to confirm what you don't want to know.
I quess makers like Torres and Martin must have done their own style of scientific experiments to reach the conclusions they did, the measuring equipment has moved on since then and it's only right to use it to further our understanding of vibrating plates. I agree though with those who have written that TG methods will not lead to better guitars (I don't think this is possible) but perhaps to more consistant results.

I would love to read the books but can't afford it.
Is there anyone in the UK who can lend me a copy?
I've got Cumpriano's book I could swap for a while.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 7:06 am 
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I'm a total seat-of-the-pants type of instrument maker, but I read as much as I can about the craft, from different views. I got the Gore/Gillet books as soon as they came out, and although my math chops aren't that great, I think I got something out of those parts, too. An example is the chapter on getting your instrument to play in tune, with the best explanation, and best graphics, about nut compensation etc. I have seen anywhere. So its not all about top resonances and bracing systems, even if those are probably the most interesting for a lot of people. I think it is a good idea to study up as much as you can, along with keeping records and having a systematic approach to your own work, even if it is not strictly scientific. Sooner or later you will come up with your own system, that works for YOU, which is what it is all about.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:52 am 
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mqbernardo wrote:
CharlieT wrote:
Dom Regan wrote:
Best quote, "Until you have read this book, you cannot have a fully informed conversation about guitars"


Dom - if I may ask, who are you quoting here? Thx

That´s a quote from the back cover of the book - allegedly from the authors, one has to conclude. it´s that kind of hyperbolic statement made to impress and get the hype rolling that i (and others as Waddy, apparently) have trouble digesting. the inside of the book, thankfully, proved much more palatable.

cheers,
miguel.


This might actually be a true statement. If this approach is viable, nay NECESSARY, you need to read these revolutionary books to be on the cutting edge producing the best sounding guitars, the highest modern pinnacle of the craft the world has yet seen, with knowledge never before known to luthiers in any age. If it's simply one author's viewpoint or a buncha hype and BS, but all your prospective clients think it's true and want their guitars tuned 'cuz they read it on the internet and were impressed by the language, you need to be able to understand the system in order to explain why it doesn't really do what it's purported to do, and how you achieve a similar result with your own methodology.

This quote could also be applied to other books as well.

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