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Some folk!
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Author:  Michael.N. [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:33 am ]
Post subject:  Some folk!
I hate to wash my Linen in public but this one I found to be a bit below the belt.
I had what seemed to be a genuine enquiry for a Guitar. Nothing unusual about that. Everything was quite civil in the exchanges until his 3 rd e-mail came through:

Hello Michael,

I forgot to ask you something I'd like to know about the terz guitar....

Could you please mail me the following data: (preferably in cm's, if possible)

-Body depth
-Body Width (lower and upper bouts)
-Body length.
And finally the total length,(body with neck) measured from the very bottom of the body up to the nut

By the way are those tuners just wooden pegs, like on a lute? If yes, can I easily tune down the G string to F and vice versa, which is something I do very often while I am playing? I suppose yes...Must one put some kind of grease (or powder) on those pegs??
Thank you very much.
Best Wishes,

XXXXX

My reply:

Hello XXXX,

I'm curious why you need such detailed measurements? I've never been asked before for these measurements on any Guitar, other than Nut
width and string length.
I do hope you understand why I ask this because I have had someone copy the design of my Vihuela and then offer it for sale as being his
design. All the features that he used were taken from my website, no question about it. It is for this reason that I have to be
careful, given that I have spent a lot of time in developing these instruments.
In answer to your question regarding the Pegs. Yes, they are like Lute Pegs. Dependent on which wood is used Peg Paste may be required.
Boxwood Pegs don't normally require the use of paste, otherwise they slip very easily. If you are going down from G to F (a whole tone), it may well need different strings gauges, otherwise the tension will be much lower than is normal. It may well lose some of it's tonality as well. It's
not too bad going down just a semi-tone though. I will start Varnishing the Terz today.

Kindest Regards

Michael

Followed by:

Dear Mr. XXXX

I am so busted! You really cought me....what a shame, really.....
The only reason I wanted to have the very detailed measurements was indeed to make a copy of my own. I make guitars all the time.....you cannot blame a person for trying, can you:):):) I am one of the most well known luthiers in the world and do nothing else but stealing designs from my collegue luthiers. I make about 400 guitars a year. I will try and get the data from another luthier, and see what will happen:)
So our brief encounter ends here and now. To conclude and clear things up : "I will not buy your guitar", sorry.
Good luck with the business.

Best Wishes,
XXXX
P.S. Me being a luthier trying to steal your design was off course a joke. Me getting the "necessary data" from another luthier was no joke though, neither me not buying your terz!


All a bit sad really and quite unnecessary.
Author:  alan stassforth [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Some folk!
Did you get a deposit?
Author:  DennisK [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Some folk!
What an annoying fellow! He could have just asked honestly. And he builds 400 guitars a year, but can't come up with his own design for a terz? Then again, anyone building 400 guitars a year is more likely just coordinating a small army, and may or may not have a feel for building himself.
Author:  letseatpaste [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Some folk!
DennisK wrote:
What an annoying fellow! He could have just asked honestly. And he builds 400 guitars a year, but can't come up with his own design for a terz? Then again, anyone building 400 guitars a year is more likely just coordinating a small army, and may or may not have a feel for building himself.


His PS said the bit about him being a luthier is a joke.
Author:  Michael.N. [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Some folk!
No deposit Alan because I had the Guitar in stock. The giveaway was him slipping in the request for measurements, as though it was an oversight on his part. That and the strange last measurement he requested. Nothing to do with him wanting a Case because I had already stated that it came with one. Of course if he had e-mailed and simply asked for the measurements without the pretence of buying one, I would have quite willingly obliged!
Just as well I didn't buy the expensive Gut strings that he requested! I almost did.
Author:  letseatpaste [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Some folk!
I don't know, it seemed to me that the "you caught me" deal was sarcastic and that he was effectively saying he was taking his business elsewhere since he was offended at being accused of trying to steal your design when he was asking for basic overall measurements. An overreaction, I guess, but maybe not someone trying to steal your design. Did anyone else read it that way?
Author:  nyazzip [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Some folk!
Quote:
I don't know, it seemed to me that the "you caught me" deal was sarcastic and that he was effectively saying he was taking his business elsewhere since he was offended at being accused of trying to steal your design when he was asking for basic overall measurements. An overreaction, I guess, but maybe not someone trying to steal your design. Did anyone else read it that way?



kinda what i thought
Author:  Jmc2010 [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Some folk!
letseatpaste wrote:
I don't know, it seemed to me that the "you caught me" deal was sarcastic and that he was effectively saying he was taking his business elsewhere since he was offended at being accused of trying to steal your design when he was asking for basic overall measurements. An overreaction, I guess, but maybe not someone trying to steal your design. Did anyone else read it that way?


Pretty much how I would read it as well.
Author:  Michael.N. [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Some folk!
Perhaps you are correct. There is no way that I can prove it, which is why he is anonymous. Before I wrote that e-mail, I did seek the advice of two trusted Luthier friends who both thought the request highly suspicious. I wrote the reply and sent it to the two Luthiers before sending it on to him. Both thought it a considered and honest reply and that such a reply would not put off a genuine person who was interested in buying it. I thought so too. I'm fairly certain that I would not have reacted like that.
He does come up on Google, with one single entry and a reference from him doing 'guitar repairs'. Of course that in itself is a small point.

Don't know. Perhaps I'm just being too sensitive after my Vihuela experience.
Author:  letseatpaste [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Some folk!
Michael.N. wrote:
Perhaps this is the crucial quote:

P.S. Me being a luthier trying to steal your design was off course a joke. Me getting the "necessary data" from another luthier was no joke though, neither me not buying your terz!


He's obviously not really a king of communication, but I read that as him saying he would buy from someone that would give him info about the thing he was buying. If he was asking about X brace angle and distance from soundhole to X, brace thickness, etc, then it'd be more obvious he was maybe trying to copy. Overall body dimensions seems like a pretty reasonable/common request.

Anyway, that's just the way I read it.
Author:  Michael.N. [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Some folk!
Yes I understand that now Jonathan.
Not really much point in asking for X brace dimensions (it isn't SS). There aren't any! In fact there is only one harmonic brace in front of the bridge - which is standard for that type of instrument.
I make around 8 different models of Guitar, from Baroque to Modern Classical. I receive around 30/35 emails per year. In the last 4 years I can only remember two requests for body dimensions, one of those was something like 'Is it roughly the size of a Romanillos'? I think the other wanted body length, string length and nut width (the last two being very common of course). Perhaps I get so few of these dimension requests because I'm making Historic copies and the dimensions are a given. They shouldn't be, they vary just as much as anything else but I simply don't receive requests for body dimensions. Maybe it's this fact that threw me.
Author:  Bryan Bear [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Some folk!
letseatpaste wrote:
I don't know, it seemed to me that the "you caught me" deal was sarcastic and that he was effectively saying he was taking his business elsewhere since he was offended at being accused of trying to steal your design when he was asking for basic overall measurements. An overreaction, I guess, but maybe not someone trying to steal your design. Did anyone else read it that way?


That was exactly my read. . .
Author:  DennisK [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Some folk!
Ah, now I get it. Well then, maybe he wasn't so bad after all... at least when I'm looking at builders' web sites, I'm always put off when the basic dimensions of scale length/body length/depth/lower bout width aren't included, as I wouldn't be able to tell how comfortable it would be for me just by looking at a picture with no scale. And anyway, just copying a body shape won't make it sound the same as if you built it... not to mention I can copy a body shape pretty accurately if you give me the scale length and a photo directly from the front, so be careful of that too if you're that picky about imitators. Better yet, trademark the shape, give everyone the measurements, and then sue them for free money when they do it :) If Martin can trademark half of a square with rounded corners, surely you can do a whole body shape.
Author:  Mike Dotson [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Some folk!
Can't even guess at the number of tire kickers I've wasted time with. Sometimes weeks of back and forth emails and phone calls. Pictures of wood, sketches of inlay or shapes, etc, etc. only to have them just quit returning calls or say they had a bad turn of luck or whatever. Just the way it goes.
Author:  Arnt Rian [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Some folk!
Same here, just part of "the cost of doing business", or whatever the term is...
Author:  letseatpaste [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Some folk!
Just to stir the pot a bit... I just did a random check of a few luthiers' websites off the top of my head, and, for example, Lance K and John Mayes both put up general dimensions similar to what this guy was asking for. If I were a customer I might be a little put off by the suspicious treatment, too. I would have spelled more of my words correctly, though. :)
Author:  Michael.N. [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Some folk!
In his defence English isn't his first language.
Whilst you may be correct in saying that giving dimensions in the SS is the norm, it is less so in the Classical Guitar sphere. In the world of 19 th century instruments and before (which is what we are referring to), I can assure you that it is not common at all. I've just checked with around 10 Luthiers who make such instruments and not one of them lists dimensions other than string length and nut width. Perhaps this is more of a 'cultural' thing and his background is more from the SS world. Thinking about it I have never had anyone asking the dimensions of a 19 th century (or before) instrument. It actually came as a surprise when I received the e-mail asking for dimensions. Now I'm beginning to understand why I misunderstood his email. However ill judged my response was (I now accept that it was) I still believe that his reply was discourteous and an over reaction though.
Author:  Don Williams [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Some folk!
I once had a guy email me about one of my guitars, and he started out sounding pretty serious about one. Next thing I know, he's trying to get me to drop my price in half because he's going to use it in church. ??? Great! My reward may be in heaven, but my bills are on earth...
Then he actually had the nerve to ask me for dimensions of the guitar so that a friend of his could make one for him instead. I gave him the basic dimensions (sort of) and wished him well. Those guys are out there, and not much you can do but be kind, polite, firm, and let them go their way if they so choose. You will hear every excuse and story when doing this thing we call building a custom instrument, so just think of it as part of the price of doing business. Or, you can raise your prices up to $20K and remove most of that sort of thing completely from the picture. You may not get any calls that way, but then again you might start selling more!
Author:  Ken Jones [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Some folk!
There's no way I'd want to do business with someone so reactionary as that. That would not end well.
Author:  Shaw [ Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Some folk!
If I was putting out some money for an instrument I would like to know the dimensions myself. Stuff like that is very important to me and many others. I think you should have replied to the guy by asking why that was important and thats that. No need for the stolen design response....Mike
Author:  truckjohn [ Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Some folk!
Maybe he wanted to buy a custom hard case for the thing... I have had a bunch of trouble getting cases for "Odd" guitar shapes... (Meaning not a Martin or Gibson current production)

On most classicals... "Modern" classicals are almost always the same size - within 1/2" or 3/4" in almost every dimension except perhaps body length...

I guess I don't understand the worry about body outside dimensions... It's not like having the same outer dimensions will mean they have the same sound... Consider the classical world as a fine example of that.... where they have all basically homed in on the same dimensions that Torres settled on in the late 1800's...

Thanks
Author:  WudWerkr [ Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Some folk!
Ken Jones wrote:
There's no way I'd want to do business with someone so reactionary as that. That would not end well.



I agree with this statement .. Could you have worded it a bit different ? yes .. were your comments out of line .. I dont think so . We live in a very litigous and dishonest world and I have to believe that given his reaction , at best , he would have been a hard customer to deal with in the long run.
Author:  Clay S. [ Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Some folk!
I have an antique guitar that has a body size about the size of a mandolin. Next to a typical terz it looks like a terz. The buyer may have wanted to verify that the guitar was indeed a terz guitar of typical dimensions. People have bought things on eBay only to find out they were dimensionally much different than what they expected.
Some people are overly sensitive by nature, and easily insulted. Others don't like to deal with people who are suspicious of their motives. But most who walk away so easily are "tire kickers", who would have eventually found a reason to not go through with the deal.
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