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| Big Mistake.Ruined top? http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=35466 |
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| Author: | crich [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Big Mistake.Ruined top? |
This just sickens my stomach. What ever happened to measure twice cut once? ![[headinwall]](./images/smilies/headbangwalluf8.gif "Mad") The center of the soundhole is where I wanted the top of the soundhole to be. Now the soundhole is two inches too close to the fingerboard. I'm not sure how to continue. ![[uncle]](./images/smilies/surrenderflagqv6.gif "Uncle") Any ideas other than sell my tools and take up needlepoint? Clinton
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| Author: | nyazzip [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Big Mistake.Ruined top? |
...don't let the artsy-fartsy get in the way of the nuts and bolts 
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| Author: | letseatpaste [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Big Mistake.Ruined top? |
Oh man... awesome looking rosette. I did that with two tops, one right after the other, did the rosette and soundhole exactly 1" too high. I figured out later it fit for a Size 5 so I set them aside for that. You might check and see if you have any another guitar sizes you could make work with it. |
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| Author: | Ron Belanger [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Big Mistake.Ruined top? |
Oh man, I feel your pain. Looks like a new top is in order. |
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| Author: | RogerC108 [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Big Mistake.Ruined top? |
I don't know how to fix it, but that one very cool rosette. |
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| Author: | Trevor Gore [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Big Mistake.Ruined top? |
Sh!t happens. OK, think about this: Pick out a grain line either side of your rosette, and draw a pair of parallel lines either side of the rosette. Bandsaw down those lines, so your top is now in three pieces. You're going to slide the whole centre piece down the guitar and re-glue, using the off-cut at the butt end to scarf onto the neck end which hopefully will be hidden under the fret board, or if not, insert a piece that butts to the rosette (then a doubler under). Make the scarf first, shoot the joints, re-glue and level. Should work if you have a bit of thickness left to work with, a bit of spare width and a bit of luck. |
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| Author: | crich [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Big Mistake.Ruined top? |
That's a great idea. BUT-I already thicknessed the top. It's at .115". I don't think I can go much thinner for a harp guitar? Clinton |
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| Author: | Colin North [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Big Mistake.Ruined top? |
That is one exceptionally beautiful rosette. How much thickness do you think you would lose levelling if you did split it in 3 and re-joint carefully? Could you make up that loss with bracing height/quantity/style? |
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| Author: | cphanna [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Big Mistake.Ruined top? |
I think Trevor made a great suggestion. I'd sure be tempted to try it. Or, failing that, I'd even consider leaving the sound hole high on the face. You'd doubtless have a shorther fingerboard if you did that, and you'd need to re-think the internal bracing, too. I don't know whether such a thing would be possible. IEven if it were, it might might not be marketable. But, you know, if this is your personal instrument, then the field is open for experimentation. One thing is certain: That rosette is outstanding. Even if you saw the rest of that top up into ukulele tops, you've gotta cut that rosette out of there and frame it! |
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| Author: | Jeff Highland [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Big Mistake.Ruined top? |
Could you leave it there with just a trebble string side fretboard overhang |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Big Mistake.Ruined top? |
I don't get it. Are you saying its too close to the neck block. It looks centered correctly. If this design is a Dyer, the sound hole center will be a bit off the guitar centerline (on purpose). It does look close to the neck block. That is one I did as well. Mike (gonna wait for clarification) |
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| Author: | Michael.N. [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Big Mistake.Ruined top? |
crich wrote: That's a great idea. BUT-I already thicknessed the top. It's at .115". I don't think I can go much thinner for a harp guitar? Clinton You should be able to join that without any step, perhaps a fraction of a mm at most. You will probably need a glue with a reasonable open time and caul clamp all along the joint with numerous clamps. Make sure the caul and counter caul is flat. |
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| Author: | WilliamS [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Big Mistake.Ruined top? |
You could change you're design slightly and split the soundhole with the fingerboard and end it at the bottom inside edge of your rosette, ala Simplicio (I think Paul Fischer, among others, have done similar designs). Here's a pic of what I'm talking about: http://www.guitarplans.co.uk/PLAN%20SAM ... errera.jpg If you do that, though, you may want to add a sound port of similar area as that covered by the fingerboard. |
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| Author: | DennisK [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Big Mistake.Ruined top? |
Trevor's solution would technically work, but personally I'd rather not have all those joints, not to mention the many opportunities to screw up  I'd redesign the instrument around it. Is the original neck a 14 fret join already? If not, then that's an easy switch. But if it is, then add a fingerboard overhang for the last couple frets, and switch to fanned frets with a shorter treble scale to get even more room on the trebles, and just cut off the last couple frets from the low strings since they're not used much anyway. Maybe go to 15 or 16 fret neck too, which fanned fret also helps with, to get the sub-bass half of the bridge farther down toward the tail so you're not shortening the scale length on the lowest ones In fact, if you just want to start fresh, I'd be quite happy to take this one off your hands
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Big Mistake.Ruined top? |
Ok, now I understand, and it's what I thought. I did indeed do this same thing on my first harp guitar. I did not discover it until it was bonded to the sides! You can probably find posts about that in the archives, or at harpguitars.net. I punted and cut the top off and did it right. Of course, in my case, the rosette sucked so it was not a deciding factor. That rosette can be cut out and reused, right? Cut it out oversized, thin it down, then scroll saw it out. Mike Edit: I'm not a fan of final thicknessing the top until all inlay work is done. |
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| Author: | Rod True [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Big Mistake.Ruined top? |
Only two options I can see, well three if you count doing a new top. First and easiest would be as Filippo suggested, just don't make the fretboard as long...after all you might not even ever play up that far. Second which would mean a lot more layout work, make the neck join at the 16th fret.....sort of like Mike Doolin's double cutaway guitars.... You'll have to do a full redesign of the body this way though.... which makes option 1 much more appealing. Third, start over with a new top. |
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| Author: | crich [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Big Mistake.Ruined top? |
This is why I post here! Lots of great ideas! ![[:Y:]](./images/smilies/smiley20.gif "Thumbs Up") I was sooo down and depressed, but after reading all these ideas I feel like there's hope. This top came close to becoming kindling! Really. Until Patrick suggested that I at least frame the rosette.  The inlay was complete, I was thicknessing when I found the mistake. This was designed to be a 13 fret. So..14 frets shouldn't be an issue and if I investigate and learn more on how to pull off a fan fret, that would get me some more real estate. And I shouldn't dismiss putting some overhang into the soundhole or even cutting off a fret or two.( Although as a guitar player it still irks me to no end.) I do feel humbled by the compliments on the rosette to the point that I'm inspired to come up with an idea to save this top. While I'm thinking of it, this top came from Shane, and it is nice! I hope he doesn't see this post and see how I screwed it up!  I'll go back to the drawing board with these ideas tomorrow and see what I can do. Clinton
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| Author: | Terence Kennedy [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Big Mistake.Ruined top? |
If it's any consolation I did the same thing on an OM last year. I always measure off the "1" on the ruler and I forgot to add "1" at the other end. Wound up an inch upstream. The top is sitting on a shelf as a monument to my stupidity. It was a nice rosette too. This thread has given me some ideas. |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Big Mistake.Ruined top? |
This may seem overly obvious to post, but what I learned from my similar error was to create a template from the drawing. And use that to lay everything out. Btw, if you are changing the joint fret location, remember that will effect bridge location, and so on. Mike |
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| Author: | Heath Blair [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Big Mistake.Ruined top? |
first of all, i agree, a really great looking creative rosette. second, excellent advice from those that have already posted. third, and this is some advice ive been trying to give myself, if youre able to make the fretboard before you get to this point in the build you will have something to reference where the sound hole goes (assuming you dont goof up the fretboard!). that doesnt fix your current problem, but might help you in the future. its always way more exciting to start building the top, which is why i have never done it the way i suggested, but i intend to. |
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| Author: | cphanna [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Big Mistake.Ruined top? |
Clinton: There ya go! Get into creative solution mode and save this puppy! Everyone thinks it's cool, and most think it can be saved. I believe you can do it. In fact, I'm convinced. I am looking forward to the outcome. Go for it! ...but don't you dare let that lovely rosette go away.... Patrick |
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| Author: | alan stassforth [ Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Big Mistake.Ruined top? |
What's wrong with the soundhole being where it is? Ribbecke puts a soundhole on the top half of the upper bout on the Halfling design. Sounds great! So, you can't have as many frets. I say go ahead and use it. Nice rosette! |
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| Author: | Ken Franklin [ Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Big Mistake.Ruined top? |
Make your fingerboard and bridge and lay them on your top to see if like where the soundhole is. If you don't like it then save the rosette and put it in another top. If you can come up with a creative solution that you like then go with it. If not then you are better off learning the new skill of saving a rosette. In the end if you don't really like your creative solution it will always bother you. |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Big Mistake.Ruined top? |
Rod may not remember this, but when I made the same mistake, we all agreed that I should cut the top off and start over. I wanted it to look right (my choice). Plus, my rosetter sucked. All you have done to this point is rough cut a top and installed a very nice rosette. You would be out maybe $80. When I discovered my error, top was braced, installed, and bound! This may be a case of throwing good money and time after bad. Cut the rosette out, order a new top and install the salvaged rosette. This is a lot better than trying to convince yourself and others that your Frankentar is a thing of beauty.  Mike |
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| Author: | Rod True [ Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Big Mistake.Ruined top? |
Mike O'Melia wrote: Rod may not remember this, but when I made the same mistake, we all agreed that I should cut the top off and start over. I wanted it to look right (my choice). Plus, my rosetter sucked. All you have done to this point is rough cut a top and installed a very nice rosette. You would be out maybe $80. When I discovered my error, top was braced, installed, and bound! This may be a case of throwing good money and time after bad. Cut the rosette out, order a new top and install the salvaged rosette. This is a lot better than trying to convince yourself and others that your Frankentar is a thing of beauty. Mike Now that you mention it Mike, I do remember. And I also remember that you were very happy to start over and to make it right which is what I would do (and have done, several times) too!!! Ultimately, that's the best solution anyone of us can do, but if one doesn't want to start over than the other suggestions are sound.
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