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Neck woods for classicals
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Author:  WendyW [ Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:50 am ]
Post subject:  Neck woods for classicals
I'm really wanting a very light colored wood for the neck of my next classical. I'm considering port orford cedar or birdseye maple, leaning towards the port orford. Any experience you'd care to share, or opinion on which would be the better choice for a classical is appreciated. I've heard a few good things about the poc but haven't noticed it used much and wondering why. The neck will be Spanish style with slotted heel. Thanks, Wendy
Author:  TRein [ Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck woods for classicals
POC is not used much since it was not imported into Spain in the era when the classical guitar arrived at its final form. Even today, POC is not widely available so I don't see folks using it much. It would probably work fine, but I can't see it working as well structurally or tonally as Spanish cedar. I would not use maple on a classical neck, or acoustic neck for that matter. I have played too many maple-necked guitars with weird resonances that caused fret buzzes, even on a perfectly set up neck.
One of the OLF sponsors, Hibdon Hardwood, has some really nice Spanish cedar of the species Cedrela mexicana which is a nicer wood than C. odorata, IMO. Some of Hibdon's stock is very light colored, probably about as light as POC and it has a proven track record of over a hundred years as being a great wood for classical guitar necks.
Author:  Michael.N. [ Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck woods for classicals
TRein wrote:
POC is not used much since it was not imported into Spain in the era when the classical guitar arrived at its final form. Even today, POC is not widely available so I don't see folks using it much. It would probably work fine, but I can't see it working as well structurally or tonally as Spanish cedar. I would not use maple on a classical neck, or acoustic neck for that matter. I have played too many maple-necked guitars with weird resonances that caused fret buzzes, even on a perfectly set up neck.
One of the OLF sponsors, Hibdon Hardwood, has some really nice Spanish cedar of the species Cedrela mexicana which is a nicer wood than C. odorata, IMO. Some of Hibdon's stock is very light colored, probably about as light as POC and it has a proven track record of over a hundred years as being a great wood for classical guitar necks.



Why would that be? I'm at a complete loss as to why Maple would cause that, especially considering it's the wood for the Violin family Necks and was also used on some Romantic Guitars. It's pretty common on electric Guitars too.
Author:  John Arnold [ Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck woods for classicals
IMHO, POC would work just fine.
Birdseye maple (sugar maple) is much denser than the normal woods used for classical necks. Unless you build a guitar with a heavy body, that would tend to make the guitar neck-heavy. Silver maple is much less dense, but it rarely displays much figure.
If you are not averse to using some carbon fiber reinforcement, there are several low density hardwoods that are light-colored. Those include aspen, poplar, and alder.
Author:  mqbernardo [ Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck woods for classicals
POC indeed sounds like a viable alternative, some renowned luthiers use it when they can find suitable pieces (IIRC Peter Oberg uses it). African mahogany (K. ivorensis) can be light (both in weight and colour, but not as light and it can also be heavy, depending on the piece). Here in Portugal alder was used traditionally for many folk stringed instruments, so it should also work.
Author:  John Arnold [ Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck woods for classicals
Quote:
what would cause fret buzzing insofar as the neck wood is concerned?

Instability, mainly. Maple, particularly the denser variety, is not known for stability. My main problem with maple necks has been the tendency to back bow when the fingerboard is glued on. That is easily resolved with a massive curved caul, or by leaving the neck in clamps for an extended period. You could also glue the fingerboard with epoxy, if you were so inclined.
Author:  Alan Carruth [ Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck woods for classicals
Early instruments often had necks made of tings like spruce or poplar, or even willow, that were then veneered. That would be a good way to go, if you like the look maple, and don't want the weight. The Parker 'Fly' solid body had essentially the same thing, with a spruce neck (iirc) that was 'veneered' with unidirectional CF.
Author:  WendyW [ Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck woods for classicals
Thanks for the answers. Just out of curiosity Filippo, are any of your maple necked guitars classicals? I think I read in a very old interview with Gary Southwell that he likes to use birdseye maple for necks and that none of his clients have ever complained about the extra weight in the neck. As far as POC, there is a current interview in Guitar Bench Magazine with Les Stansell and he claims that POC "has the highest strength to weight ratio of all wood species, is very dimensionally stable and has the lightness of Spanish cedar with the stiffness of mahogany". He is using it for necks on flamencos. I was just curious if anyone here had used it for necks. I'm also not opposed to using carbon fiber reinforcement in a neck but, since I have never done that, are there any tutorials you can point me to? Thanks, Wendy
Author:  MaxBishop [ Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck woods for classicals
Wendy,

Les Stansell is the only one who uses POC for necks, as far as I know. He salvages and deals in the stuff in SW Oregon. I understand that its strength to weight ratio is very high. I have used Spanish Cedar, primarily and it works very well. However, there is a wide range of density.

Max
Author:  TRein [ Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck woods for classicals
Filippo Morelli wrote:
TRein wrote:
I would not use maple on a classical neck, or acoustic neck for that matter. I have played too many maple-necked guitars with weird resonances that caused fret buzzes, even on a perfectly set up neck.

This is a baffling attribution to me. I own several maple neck guitars and have played many more acoustics with maple necks and never seen this problem. More to the point, what would cause fret buzzing insofar as the neck wood is concerned?

Filippo


I have my theories, one of which revolves around the fact that mahogany and Spanish cedar are diffuse porous and maple is not. I'll not expound my theories here since they are just theories. If you doubt my conclusion, find a large guitar store with lots of Taylor guitars hanging on the wall. Taylors are prone to buzzing on the first string at the 5th or 6th fret on the first string. It is subtle, but these notes do not ring out as clearly as those above and below. There is a bit of fuzz around the note, which indicates a phase interaction between the resonant frequency of the neck and that of the body. You can even see an irregular vibrating envelope to the string at the 5th or 6th fret on the first string on a Taylor. This phenomenon is magnified when you pick up a Taylor with a maple neck. What was just a bit of fuzz on a mahogany neck is pretty nasty on a maple neck. I used to work in a large guitar store and played many maple necked Taylors and they all exhibited this characteristic.
As for maple electric guitar necks: they are buzzy as all get out but unless the buzz comes though the amp players don't worry about it. Acoustic players would not tolerate the amount of buzz that is acceptable in an electric guitar.
Author:  Stuart Gort [ Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck woods for classicals
Les Stansell is a good guy.

http://www.stansellguitars.com/

I bought some POC from him....some billets for elecctric bodies and some beautifully quartersawn neck blanks.

My first impression was that I'd feel better if I laminated these necks with something rigid down the middle. Truth is though...after having my hands on it long enough, I probably should have just left those blanks alone and simply made pure POC necks. Ah well...I DID get three necks out of two blanks. :)

One thing I did have trouble with is finishing the stuff. You get a progressively darker look as the endgrain angle becomes more perpendicular to the surface. It helps to sand it as finely as possible before you start sealing but I also found that the best sealer was a water based polyacrylic pore filler from General Finshing. That sealed nicely and kept the end grain very white. Well....it's a yellow white but I like to keep it as light as possible. I LOVE the homogenous look of this wood under a clear finish.
Author:  bftobin [ Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck woods for classicals
As a general rule, classical guitars are made very light weight, which is why many use Spanish cedar for necks. I would see if Shane at High Mountain would have some Lutz spruce to use for a neck and add some carbon fiber. Good strength, stable wood, light weight and light color.

Brent
Author:  Tim Mullin [ Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:05 am ]
Post subject:  Neck woods for classicals
TRein wrote:

I have my theories, one of which revolves around the fact that mahogany and Spanish cedar are diffuse porous and maple is not. I'll not expound my theories here since they are just theories.


I won't question your observations, but your theory may require some thinking. Maples are indeed diffuse porous, as distinct from ring porous, meaning their vessels are more or less uniform in size across the growth ring, rather than varying in size between early wood and late wood (such as ash or oak). I expect you are referring to the relatively small size of the vessels in maple, compared to mahogany or Spanish cedar.
Author:  TRein [ Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck woods for classicals
Tim,
Maple may indeed be diffuse porous, but North American maple's pores are so microscopic as to be functionally non-existent. Soft maple has larger pores than hard maple, but both are still quite different in structure from mahogany or Spanish cedar. My "theory" is more intuition than science. I have witnessed an observable phenomenon, namely fuzziness in notes on maple necked acoustic guitars, and accompanying disturbances in the vibrating string envelope at these fuzzy frequencies, which can be seen visually.
Author:  Michael.N. [ Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck woods for classicals
Has anyone else noticed these fuzzy notes on Maple necks? There must be a reasonable amount of Guitars sold with Maple necks, or perhaps it's just a Taylor Steel String thing?
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck woods for classicals
A friend has a few cheap amplified thin classicals made by the local factory here. I did some work on them and didn't notice anything strange, no buzzes at all.
Author:  ernie [ Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck woods for classicals
I have tried a variety different woods for classical guitar necks.The 19 th century spanish luthiers were practical, and used what was available to them locally. I have used honduras mahogany , carves nicely very stable, spanish cedar carves easily, but has a wooly texture, 1/4 sawn 20 yrold poplar , carves easily and cleanly, some may not like the green color , which can be stained.Mo cherry , carves easily, more difficult to carve than other woods , cherry here has minor resin pockets. Walnut , local hard and heavy, nice color , but needs thinning for a classical.Glued up some alder, but no carving yet assume it will carve like soft maple.My favorite here in the midwest is 1/4 sawn sycamore, I love the beautiful ray fleck figure, it is cheap here and readily available, but the density varies tremendously from abt .40 to .55.It can be stained , carves easily with sharp tools, the only drawback , is that it needs to be bone dry as it can warp.IMHO a vy underrated wood .Butternut is also a good carving wood but not readily available here.Have also made a neck using hackbery a silver /yellow bland wood, carving is hard and has the same density as walnut IMHO.Arthur Overholtzer was a big proponent of EIR which he claimed was a superior wood for classical gtrs.
Author:  Bryan Bear [ Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck woods for classicals
Ernie,
Do you have any pictures of one of your sycamore necks. I have some QS sycamore that I intend to use for necks, it seems ideal. I'm just wondering how the rays will look on the neck profile. If I use it quarter sawn, I imagine the very center of the neck to have the long almost stripey looking rays that show up on the absolute perfect quarter, quickly transitioning to the beautiful spots that show up when you are close to the quarter; but by the time you get close to the edge of the neck profile, I would expect to see nothing but a nondescript light wood. I thought about using it flatsawn with a center strip (seems plenty stable once dried) hoping to see the figure on the edges and the strip can add interest to the center. I also thought about trying to laminate some rift sawn pieces together to try to try to maximize the part of the carving that would show quartered surface, but where would I find rift sawn sycamore. . . Maybe I'm just over thinking this.
Author:  Ken Franklin [ Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck woods for classicals
Two other light colored woods are white limba and primavera.
Author:  ernie [ Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck woods for classicals
Bryan, I have used a home made vln varnish to make the figure/rays in the neck pop, I don/t have a photo. You could also do it by using a dye to pop the rays and some linseed oil.PS I just finished carving a sycamore neck that I bought from the converted school/wood store in kirkwood mo that I got back in 1996.Will ask my wife nicely if she can upload the photo.The piece of wood used for the neck has the figure /ray on the right side .I used leftover scraps on the stacked heel and then carved away, there is no visual consistency.Plan to use a behlen yellow/orange maple dye(woodcraft) followed by a couple of swipes of boiled linseed oil, to create an amber reddish brwn colour.I also have a dyed brwn shellac, to give it a more intense look.I would suggest practicing on scrap pcs of sycamore to get the colour you are after . Would not spend time agonizining over grain an colour, unlesss your looking for a special effect.I have ripped sycamore pcs that have a lot of fiddleback back figure into 2 pcs , an then one can add a centerstripe walnut ebony/purpleheart etc to create an interesting viual effect cheers ernie.
Author:  David LaPlante [ Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck woods for classicals
One alternative that no one has mentioned is to use mahogany or Spanish cedar and then to use wood bleach to take out the color.
You then should be able to tone it back to whatever you want color wise.

Places like Woodcraft supply or Behlen's usually carry this.

http://www.woodcraft.com/product/200553 ... -pint.aspx
Author:  WendyW [ Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck woods for classicals
David, I'm just looking for a wood that is naturally a bit lighter than Spanish cedar or mahogany, but I don't really want to get involved in bleaching and it doesn't need to be that pale. I'm just curious if you have any opinion on Port Orford cedar? Sycamore sounds like an option and I have to make a trip to ther local hardwood supply this weekend. I know they have some nice birds eye maple too. Wendy
Author:  ernie [ Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck woods for classicals
Bryan , here are 2 samples one is a rough carved sycamore neck, you can see the ray fleck on the rt side , heel is a mish mash of leftover old pcs of sycamore ranging from white to pinkish. The veneer sample is white sycamore that was ripped in 2 to get a bookmatch fiddle effect,and then resawn on the bandsaw to create veneers or whatever , hope this helps ernie.
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck woods for classicals
"Naturally lighter than Spanish cedar" - that's the likes of WRC...balsa...paulownia...you don't want these for a neck. Spanish cedar is very often less than 500Kg/m3, overlapping Sitka or Adi spruce. I even measured one of 360Kg - same as heavy WRC or Engelmann spruce!
POC is a great choice.
Author:  ernie [ Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck woods for classicals
+1 for POC, never used it,Am sure that once spanish cedar an h mahog become less available and more expensive that luthiers and manuf. will be looking for alternative woods
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