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Would You Use These Tops?
http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=36877		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  PoppaWoodie [ Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:38 am ]
Post subject:  Would You Use These Tops?
I have a couple of Engelmann tops that I was planning on using for my next two builds, but both of them go a few degrees off-quarter toward the outside edges (as evidenced by the pictures). Would using them have a negative effect on the tone (all things otherwise being equal to a perfectly quartered top), or is it really not much of a problem? Thankfully I didn't pay a whole ton for them, but for all of the work that it takes to build a guitar, I don't want to sacrifice anything tonally by using a sub-par top just to save a few bucks.

Any help, advice, or opinions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Image
Author:  bluescreek [ Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Would You Use These Tops?
nothing wrong with them that I can see from the edge , How is the run out ?
Author:  jfmckenna [ Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Would You Use These Tops?
For all practical purposes I would consider those to be quarter sawn. If the lines formed by the annular rings that you see on the edge run all the way along the face of the board to the other side (i.e. you trace the rings from end to end) then you are good to go. If not then you would want to cut the rectangle shape out of the board so that it does and hope that you have enough left over to join the top.

Runout is not so easy to determine especially on boards that are already close to thickness because you can't split them to see. Here's a really good article on the whole thing:
http://www.lutherie.net/frankford.runout.html
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Would You Use These Tops?
You can check runout by cutting a 45* along one edge and see if the grain lines run fairly true along the face of the angle. Of course it has to be wide enough to waste that much.
Author:  CharlieT [ Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Would You Use These Tops?
For me it would depend on how stiff they are across the grain. Although I have some tops that are a bit off quarter like yours that are as stiff as any other top, more often it seems they get floppier as the grain gets off quarter.
Author:  douglas ingram [ Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Would You Use These Tops?
I would have no problem using them. Of course, it also depends upon who the final user is and how you describe them. If you are asking this question here then I doubt that you are working in the strata where your clients will be that picky. Building for yourself, then build away and be happy!
Author:  CharlieT [ Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Would You Use These Tops?
douglas ingram wrote:
Of course, it also depends upon who the final user is and how you describe them.


Good point - the soundhole will show the grain orientation, so you can't hide it (unless you bind the soundhole).

But structurally and tonally, no reason not to use them 'IF' they are stiff enough across the grain for what you are building.
Author:  theguitarwhisperer [ Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Would You Use These Tops?
Stiffness and runout are most important, and the more off vertical the less stiff. It's true that some boards off quarter are as stiff as some boards perfectly quartered, but even those tops would be stiffer if the grain were more vertical. I also like the appearance of medullary rays across the face. The rays also affect the stiffness, the same way off vertical grain affects stiffness. Parallell rays are stiffer than non-parallel rays. The more off vertical the less the rays appear, even just slightly off the way yours are.

Engellmann is typically less stiff to begin with, and also has more subdued rays in appearance even when perfectly vertical in endgrain.

That being said, if you want to use them instead of throwing them away, they should make aceptable guitars.
Author:  CharlieT [ Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Would You Use These Tops?
theguitarwhisperer wrote:
The rays also affect the stiffness, the same way off vertical grain affects stiffness. Parallell rays are stiffer than non-parallel rays. The more off vertical the less the rays appear, even just slightly off the way yours are.

Just to clarify, the rays do not affect stiffness per se. The medulary rays are present in the wood regardless, but will be more visible on the surface of the top if the wood is perfectly quartered. So I think what Charles is trying to say is that the appearance of medulary rays is typically a sign of well quartered spruce, but you can look at the end grain to confirm the grain orientation either way. The rays certainly do look nice, though.
Author:  Clay S. [ Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Would You Use These Tops?
I would not hesitate to use those tops if they were reasonably stiff. I think most of us need to work on finding the master grade luthier within ourselves, and less about finding the perfect piece of spruce. laughing6-hehe Finding the diamond in the rough is the easy part, cutting and polishing it so we are dazzled by it takes some skill. [:Y:]
Author:  Bryan Bear [ Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Would You Use These Tops?
Preach on Clay! [:Y:]
Author:  David Newton [ Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Would You Use These Tops?
I can't judge wood based only on an end view, but the end view looks good.

We all want wood that is perfect in every respect, but compromises are bound to happen.
Anyone selling guitars should know that the cosmetics of the top are of first importance to the customer.
Less than "very stiff" tops can be handled to make great sounding guitars.
Each defect is handle-able, up to the point of not using defective wood.
Author:  theguitarwhisperer [ Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Would You Use These Tops?
CharlieT wrote:
theguitarwhisperer wrote:
The rays also affect the stiffness, the same way off vertical grain affects stiffness. Parallell rays are stiffer than non-parallel rays. The more off vertical the less the rays appear, even just slightly off the way yours are.

Just to clarify, the rays do not affect stiffness per se. The medulary rays are present in the wood regardless, but will be more visible on the surface of the top if the wood is perfectly quartered. So I think what Charles is trying to say is that the appearance of medulary rays is typically a sign of well quartered spruce, but you can look at the end grain to confirm the grain orientation either way. The rays certainly do look nice, though.


I respectfully disagree. The orientation of the rays affect the stiffness, just as the orientation of the long grain runout affects the stiffness of the top. It may be minimal, but it is there. Wood fibers run in at least three different directions through the wood, each fiber type parallel to others of it's type, and medullary rays are actually fibers. When all three are the correct orientation, the wood is at it's stiffest and strongest for that particular piece of wood.
But yes, the presence of rays across the face does indicate perfect vertical grain across the width of the guitar top, which also affects the stiffness for that piece of wood, with the prominence of the rays indicating how vertical. As much as 2 degrees off vertical is enough to hide the appearance o the medullary rays, as the medullary ray fibers actually run out the top of the guitars instead of presenting themselves visibly, so a lack of rays could be considered a type of runout.

Frankly though, I don't consider a lack of rays or slightly off quarter grain to be a defect, it's just not to my taste. I'm probably pickier than I need to be, but that's just how I'm made. idunno
Author:  CharlieT [ Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Would You Use These Tops?
theguitarwhisperer wrote:
This is incorrect. The orientation of the rays affect the stiffness, just as the orientation of the long grain runout affects the stiffness of the top.


My point was that it's a bit misleading to say that "the rays also affect the stiffness, the same way off vertical grain affects stiffness". However you want to say it, the *appearance* of medulary rays on the surface is a function of vertical grain. Medulary rays are just the figure caused primarily by the Parenchyma cells in the wood that carry sap radially through the wood. Cutting spruce such that the grain is perfectly vertical allows that figure to show on the surface of the wood. The further off quarter the wood is cut, the less prominent the figuring is.

So what I said was accurate - the medulary rays are just figure that shows best when the wood is well quartered. The stiffness and medulary rays are both maximized when the wood is well quartered, but the figure does not contribute to stiffness. It's just an indicator of how the wood was cut. As I said, it does look nice though.
Author:  theguitarwhisperer [ Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Would You Use These Tops?
Aww, you quoted me before I could edit myself to be nicer. :cry:

But oh well. The rays provide cross linkage of the vertical grain fibers.

The effect is negligible though, to be sure, but it is there.
Author:  CharlieT [ Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Would You Use These Tops?
theguitarwhisperer wrote:
The effect is negligible though, to be sure, but it is there.


Do you mean the effect of the figure (medulary rays) or the the Parenchyma cells, which are present regardless of how the wood is cut? ;)
Author:  theguitarwhisperer [ Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Would You Use These Tops?
CharlieT wrote:
theguitarwhisperer wrote:
The effect is negligible though, to be sure, but it is there.


Do you mean the effect of the figure (medulary rays) or the the Parenchyma cells, which are present regardless of how the wood is cut? ;)


I'm talking about medullary rays, which transport food across the vertical grain, and run perpendicular to the annular rings. They run lengthwise across the face of the soundboard when the grain is vertical, but run out the top of the guitar when the grain is off vertical.
They cross link the annular rings.
Author:  Tony_in_NYC [ Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Would You Use These Tops?
Guys,
Stop talking about medullary rays! Two chicks are coming over!
Author:  theguitarwhisperer [ Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Would You Use These Tops?
but.....I like rays............... :cry:
Author:  theguitarwhisperer [ Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Would You Use These Tops?
two chicks..one guitar...with rays....
Author:  Tony_in_NYC [ Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Would You Use These Tops?
I got a new blade to saw up some flitches. Flitches love new blades.
Author:  Lavrov Guitars [ Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Would You Use These Tops?
eek Tony said the "F" word!!
Author:  Tony_in_NYC [ Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Would You Use These Tops?
Tattle tail! Or is it tattle tale? Whichever it is, you are that one!
Author:  Lavrov Guitars [ Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Would You Use These Tops?
I think it's tattletale http://i.word.com/idictionary/tattletale pfft
Author:  Mark Chinworth [ Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Would You Use These Tops?
Both sets are completely unacceptable, and probably very cumbersome to dispose of in your jurisdiction. Mail them to me and I promise to dispose in the most environmentally responsible manner.
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