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Scale lengths for Size 5 body?
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Author:  Kathy Matsushita [ Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Scale lengths for Size 5 body?
I have a possible commission for a Size 5 guitar, BUT the customer wants to be able to play in standard E tuning, instead of the usual terz tuning (3 half-steps up). I know you can tune a Size 5 down to standard E tuning, but the strings are a bit "floppy" at that tuning, and the customer doesn't want that. My question is...what would be a good scale length to be able to play in standard tuning, on a Size 5 body?

I did draw up a sketch of using a 24.9" scale, with 14 frets clear of the body --- the bridge would be lower (on the standard 21.3" scale, the bridge is about halfway down to the tail end), thus the bracing would have to be redesigned. Because of the longer scale, would you need more bracing (it's pretty light for a 21.3" scale) for the increase in tension?

Would 24.9" be too long of a scale for this? What would be the smallest or best scale length to use? (Or is it even a feasible idea to begin with?)

Any ideas would be appreciated!

Kathy
Author:  Billy T [ Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Scale lengths for Size 5 body?
Hi Kath! It's always good to see you again!

There's other ways to go, like higher gauge strings. Is your customer adverse to this possibility? Leaving all other things the same, except nut slots and intonation, makes building a lot easier on you.
Author:  Kathy Matsushita [ Wed Aug 01, 2012 8:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Scale lengths for Size 5 body?
Billy & Todd:

Thanks for your replies!!! I have forwarded them to the customer, and will see what he thinks. I didn't know that about the medium gauge strings making that difference --- I will try some out on my Size 5, to see how that is (I've never actually ever used mediums). Todd: Thanks for the idea about the 23" scale --- I'll sketch one out and see how that might look. I really would rather not make a different size soundbox (like a Size 2 --- I do have that plan of Scott Antes's, I think), if I can do something with the Size 5 mold & bending form I already have. (And the customer seems to really like the small 5 body size.)

Would a 23" scale require medium gauge strings, or could it use light gauge?

Kathy
Author:  Rodger Knox [ Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Scale lengths for Size 5 body?
Hello Kathy! I doubt you remember me, I think we exchanged a couple of emails back around the turn of the century, when I was just beginning.
I've built a 23.25" scale, and it works OK with 0.09s, but better with 0.10s. It's a small body, but not as small as a size 5.
I've also built a parlor size (same body shape as Hauser's Munich model) with a 24.5" inch scale and 14 frets to the body, I was quite pleased with it.
Author:  Pat Foster [ Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Scale lengths for Size 5 body?
Kathy,

You might get in touch with John How. I seem to recall that he's done some small bodies with longer scales.

Pat
Author:  John How [ Wed Aug 01, 2012 4:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Scale lengths for Size 5 body?
I think I would suggest to your customer that it might not be worth doing if he/she wants standard tuning with normal gauge strings. This size 5 is a mini guitar and trying to combine it with a standard scale is going to yield less than satisfactory results. You could always build a 16or 17 fret neck but it's gonna look funny no doubt.
Just my thoughts....
Author:  Don Williams [ Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Scale lengths for Size 5 body?
I'm with John How on this Kathy. Part of the beauty and appeal of the Terz (to me anyway) is the higher-pitched sound of it. I remember playing one of the prototypes of the Martin "Sting" Size 5 at the ASIA Symposium a few years back, and that's what I really enjoyed about it. To drop the pitch down to standard tuning would kill it for me. I'm about to build my first Terz of many, I hope, and I'm really looking forward to the end result.
Author:  Kathy Matsushita [ Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Scale lengths for Size 5 body?
Rodger, Pat, and John: Thanks for your insights! John --- that was one of my first responses to the customer, that it would kind of defeat the purpose of having a Size 5, since it is really meant for that 21.3 scale. He's really open to anything; he was just wondering what is possible to be able to easily play along with others, instead of having to learn the new chords to match. In fact, he just phoned me, and what he's going to do next is come over and try out medium gauge strings on my Size 5, to see how they feel and sound in standard tuning....

Kathy
Author:  DennisK [ Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Scale lengths for Size 5 body?
If you can convince him to go nylon, you could build one of these http://www.vintageguitar.com/3434/antonio-de-torres-1863/. Slightly longer body at 17", but about the same lower bout (approximately 11 1/3" by my calculations), and nice long 25" scale length. Excellent design. Sounds, feels, and looks great. In fact, I would suggest building one just for yourself :) I think you'd like it.

I haven't built any small steel strings to compare, but my instinct is that while you could do it, steels would sound too brash and lacking depth on a box this size, regardless of scale length. Let me know how the trial run with mediums on your size 5 goes... I may not know what I'm talking about :P

I don't think the Torres shape would adapt to steel all that well as-is, with the bridge being so close to the tail like that. However, I did try doodling up an X bracing pattern with the scale length shortened to 24" (bridge moved up 1/2"), and it looks like it could work reasonably well.
Author:  Kathy Matsushita [ Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Scale lengths for Size 5 body?
Don Williams wrote:
I'm with John How on this Kathy. Part of the beauty and appeal of the Terz (to me anyway) is the higher-pitched sound of it. I remember playing one of the prototypes of the Martin "Sting" Size 5 at the ASIA Symposium a few years back, and that's what I really enjoyed about it. To drop the pitch down to standard tuning would kill it for me. I'm about to build my first Terz of many, I hope, and I'm really looking forward to the end result.


Don --- Hi! I agree. I just love curling up with this little guitar and playing it. The (possible) customer likes this, too, but also plays a lot with others, so that's why he was wondering about this.... Have fun building your Terz!! I'd love to see how it comes out!
Author:  Kathy Matsushita [ Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Scale lengths for Size 5 body?
DennisK wrote:
If you can convince him to go nylon, you could build one of these http://www.vintageguitar.com/3434/antonio-de-torres-1863/. Slightly longer body at 17", but about the same lower bout (approximately 11 1/3" by my calculations), and nice long 25" scale length. Excellent design. Sounds, feels, and looks great. In fact, I would suggest building one just for yourself :) I think you'd like it.

I haven't built any small steel strings to compare, but my instinct is that while you could do it, steels would sound too brash and lacking depth on a box this size, regardless of scale length. Let me know how the trial run with mediums on your size 5 goes... I may not know what I'm talking about :P


Dennis: Thanks for your input! I don't think that's what he's looking for, but it certainly looks interesting (as a classical, not steel string) to me --- maybe some future project!
I just bought some medium gauge strings this afternoon --- I'm going to put them on the guitar maybe tonight and see how it goes....

Kathy
Author:  L. Presnall [ Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Scale lengths for Size 5 body?
Hi Kathy!

Good to see you here! I built my first guitar (A size 5) after discovering your site like, fifteen years ago! I've recently been considering building one for myself as a "grab-and-go" guitar. Maybe this is a sign to get started!
Author:  Rodger Knox [ Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Scale lengths for Size 5 body?
Here's the twins I built based on the Hauser shape, 12" lower bout and 24.5" scale.
Author:  Kathy Matsushita [ Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Scale lengths for Size 5 body?
L. Presnall wrote:
Hi Kathy!

Good to see you here! I built my first guitar (A size 5) after discovering your site like, fifteen years ago! I've recently been considering building one for myself as a "grab-and-go" guitar. Maybe this is a sign to get started!


Hi, Larry! I would say, go for it! I love to see more and more people's versions of this little guitar!
Author:  Kathy Matsushita [ Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Scale lengths for Size 5 body?
Rodger Knox wrote:
Here's the twins I built based on the Hauser shape, 12" lower bout and 24.5" scale.


Rodger: Nice! I might very well check into that size sometime. Where can I find a plan?
Author:  Rodger Knox [ Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Scale lengths for Size 5 body?
Check your email [:Y:]
Author:  Kathy Matsushita [ Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Scale lengths for Size 5 body?
Rodger Knox wrote:
Check your email [:Y:]


Thanks so much, Rodger!!!! I appreciate it!
Author:  Kathy Matsushita [ Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Scale lengths for Size 5 body?
Well, I just strung up my Size 5 with mediums, and, even though I'm not used to mediums (never have played with them), I must say, it sounds much, much better than the lights did (when tuned to standard tuning)!! I'm pleasantly surprised. No floppiness. The potential customer is coming over sometime next week, so we'll see how he feels about it. I'm thinking it might work for him.....

Thanks, everyone, for your help!

I do have a question, though. If the customer goes for this, and will be playing it primarily with mediums, do I need to do anything to the bracing? (Do I need to brace it more heavily? My bracing is pretty light: http://home.comcast.net/~kathymatsushit ... ive10.html) Or is it fine as it is?
Author:  Kathy Matsushita [ Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Scale lengths for Size 5 body?
Todd Stock wrote:
I doubt it...at E-E tuning on a 21.35" scale, string tension is about where a set of lights will be G-G. Further - it's a small guitar what tends not to show much top deformation. You could label the guitar "Medium Gauge or Lighter Strings at Standard Tuning; Light Gauge Strings at Terz Tuning."


Thanks, Todd!!! That's what I was thinking, but wasn't sure..... What would I do without the help of all of you????? Thanks again.
Author:  Billy T [ Sat Aug 04, 2012 2:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Scale lengths for Size 5 body?
Kathy Matsushita wrote:
..... What would I do without the help of all of you????? Thanks again


Back at ya babe! You have a very inspiring, upbeat site!! [clap]
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