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V Neck Joint With Tennon Jig And Table Saw???
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Author:  Chris Paulick [ Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:32 pm ]
Post subject:  V Neck Joint With Tennon Jig And Table Saw???
Anyone using these along with a miter gage to cut their V neck joints and final fitting with razor blades, chisels, flush cut saw and sand paper?
I watched Robbie's video and found it a lot more challenging for me then I think it needed to be with the chisels . So I pulled out my only used once tennon jig and it worked pretty good.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: V Neck Joint With Tennon Jig And Table Saw???
I didn't have a tenon jig, but made an angled jig attached to a miter gauge which works fine for my v joints. I wondered if a tenon jig would work, having never used one.
Author:  StevenWheeler [ Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: V Neck Joint With Tennon Jig And Table Saw???
WaddyThomson wrote:
I didn't have a tenon jig, but made an angled jig attached to a miter gauge which works fine for my v joints. I wondered if a tenon jig would work, having never used one.


Me too. Two jigs actually, one for the neck and one for the headstock.
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: V Neck Joint With Tennon Jig And Table Saw???
Yeah it works fine. Once you set the angle you use it for both the head V cut and the neck . The only extra piece I had to make was a 30 degree wedge from 3/4" plywood that sits in the back angle guide to tip the neck forward 15 degrees. I cut the neck V with the neck set back at 15 degrees and the remove it flip it over put the wedge in place then set the neck (now 15 degrees forward) and make the second V tennon cut. On the jig you can dial the cut closer to the blade which is nice so you can move up to your final cut and it is automaticly centered. Put the tilt back to 90 degrees and adjust the cut distance for the head and cut and flip and cut. I used a 7 1/4" thin keft 40 tpi Diablo blade so my max. blade height cut was 1 7/8" so I used a flush cut saw and chisels to complete the tip/ point of the 2" V . Make the tennon cheek cuts with the mitergage and fit the joint in the usual ways.
This was my first attempt at cutting a V joint and it wasnn't going to good with the bandsaw and chisels especially on the compound angle V tennon. I'm sure glad I made the neck and head blanks a bit longer then I needed so I was able to clean it up with the tennon jig. That claro wasn't cheap. :P
I cut the first piece to length and forgot to add for the V tennon, oops! I'm now thinking about putting a maple diamond in to join the neck to the head now to save the mistake and wood. :)
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: V Neck Joint With Tennon Jig And Table Saw???
I suppose it would be better to veneer a back plate to the head now before I glue it up or at least make a template for the back plate ?
Author:  Clay S. [ Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: V Neck Joint With Tennon Jig And Table Saw???
I've been using a tenoning jig to cut part of the modified bridle joint I use for splicing the neck and peghead. It allowed me to toss out a couple of homemade jigs I used previously.
Author:  StevenWheeler [ Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: V Neck Joint With Tennon Jig And Table Saw???
Chris Paulick wrote:
I suppose it would be better to veneer a back plate to the head now before I glue it up or at least make a template for the back plate ?

Next time veneer the back of the peghead before cutting the V. Good ol' 20/20 hindsight taught me that. I've seen your woodworking skills, that veneer is in good hands.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: V Neck Joint With Tennon Jig And Table Saw???
I always put the laminated back plate on after gluing up the V.
Author:  Don Williams [ Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: V Neck Joint With Tennon Jig And Table Saw???
Nice looking joint there Chris. Wish I could do one of those! Of course I've never tried...
...but it might be a fun CNC project for me eventually.
Author:  grumpy [ Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: V Neck Joint With Tennon Jig And Table Saw???
I built homemade jigs and do it all, 'cept for a bit of cleanup, on the table saw, also. I also have a barely-used(and rarely used) tenoning jig, so I may have to revisit my gigs. I like how you think...

Nice job, looks very clean and tight!

But every other such joint I've seen, including old Martins, have the headstock angled and the neck shank cut square, but you're reversed the order. On purpose? And yes, there's a practical reason; if you look at how the strings' pull will work on trying to pull-up the headstock, with the way you have the angles reversed, you're allowing it to "rotate" freely, held only by the glue, where with the neck shank squared and the headstock angled, it becomes a mechanical joint, albeit a weak one, but hey, every bit of assistance we can give the glue, helps. Oversight?

Edit to add:

Why add a backstrap veneer to an otherwise very beautiful and interesting joint???? That would be a shame in my opinion! Good joinery needs to be shown, not hidden.
Author:  Chas Freeborn [ Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: V Neck Joint With Tennon Jig And Table Saw???
Read my article in American Lutherie from last summer. I describe how to cut this joint by hand and tablesaw, and John Greven lays out a bandsaw method.
To cut a truly accurate version you have to do it by hand.
http://luth.org/backissues/al101-104/al102.htm
-C
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: V Neck Joint With Tennon Jig And Table Saw???
grumpy wrote:
Why add a backstrap veneer to an otherwise very beautiful and interesting joint???? That would be a shame in my opinion! Good joinery needs to be shown, not hidden.


Angle on the neck and square on the head section is how Romanillos does the joint, among others, for what it's worth.
Sometimes one uses the backstrap to enhance the joint!
Attachment:
P1070238 (Large).JPG
Author:  grumpy [ Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: V Neck Joint With Tennon Jig And Table Saw???
ometimes one uses the backstrap to enhance the joint!

There ya go!

o cut a truly accurate version you have to do it by hand.

No.
Author:  Chas Freeborn [ Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: V Neck Joint With Tennon Jig And Table Saw???
Pardon me, I was referring to the Martin style birdsmouth, not the classical guitar V joint.
Author:  Clay S. [ Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: V Neck Joint With Tennon Jig And Table Saw???
Hi Chas.,
For the traditional style modified bridle joint I use the tenoning jig and tablesaw to cut the bird's mouth and a simple jig and bandsaw to cut the "diamond" and angled sides of the hidden tenon. The cheeks I cut with a dovetail saw. I use a router and a jig to cut most of the ramp in the peghead, then finish up the angled sides with a chisel. Some hand work , but mostly machine work.

Hi Mario,
All the old Martins (1870's -1890's) I have had, had the peghead square cut and the neck cut angled, as Chris has done (although he is using a "V" joint rather than the one Martin used during that period)
Author:  SteveSmith [ Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: V Neck Joint With Tennon Jig And Table Saw???
Looks like there might be a use after all for that tenon jig I've got buried in the corner of the shop! Think I've used mine less than 4 or 5 times in about 12 years.
Author:  Chas Freeborn [ Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: V Neck Joint With Tennon Jig And Table Saw???
I think I may have caused some confusion on this topic. My apologies.
There are 2 distinctly different joints traditionally used. I mistook the OP's description of what I call a "Hauser V" headstock (please excuse if this is not the correct terminology - I'm not a classical builder), found on Nylon strung classical guitars, and the "Diamond Volute" or "Birds Beak" modified bridle type headstock joint I outlined in the GAL article, and found on early Martin guitars.
As said, yes, the "Hauser V" can be largely cut on a table saw with a little bit of clean up. The various methods of cutting the "Diamond Volute" are outlined clearly in the article. I agreed with GAL to not publish my methods elsewhere, so you'll have to get a copy of the magazine to read about how it's done.
-C
Author:  WendyW [ Sat Aug 18, 2012 10:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: V Neck Joint With Tennon Jig And Table Saw???
I'm looking for a tutorial to learn how to make this joint. Joshua French's tutorial for cutting it by hand is missing all the pictures. Someone here mentioned a video from Robbie. Does anyone know where that can be seen, or where there might be another tutorial? Or would one of you be willing to post a tutorial with pictures on how to lay out this joint and cut it using a tablesaw? I sure would like to give it a try.
Wendy
Author:  Alex Kleon [ Sat Aug 18, 2012 12:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: V Neck Joint With Tennon Jig And Table Saw???
Hi Wendy! Here's a link to Robbie's tutorial. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KocJHchKVZQ

Alex
Author:  WendyW [ Sat Aug 18, 2012 3:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: V Neck Joint With Tennon Jig And Table Saw???
Thanks Alex!
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