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| Helical Jointers.... http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=38406 |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Helical Jointers.... |
I saw a benchtop granite helical jointer by steel city today for about 350$. Looked pretty sweet. Are helical cutters good for jointing tops? It seems that the blades are little squares that can be rotated when they're dull. It also appears this type of cutter might be easier to set up than continuous blades. Anyone here using that type? |
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| Author: | klooker [ Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Helical Jointers.... |
My only concern would be the quality of the head in the Steel City machine. I know the Byrd heads are good but they cost more than the machine you're looking at. I just checked on the Steel City site. Their inserts are not carbide, they're HSS, the same stuff straight knives are made from. That would be a deal breaker for me. Kevin Looker |
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| Author: | B. Howard [ Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Helical Jointers.... |
I have not been happy with the surface left by helical heads used in thickness planers. They all leave a slightly scalloped surface that really annoys me. I have not used one in a joiner but imagine the quality of cut would be the same. I prefer and use carbide tipped knives instead. |
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| Author: | Robert Hosmer [ Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Helical Jointers.... |
meddlingfool wrote: I saw a benchtop granite helical jointer by steel city today for about 350$. Looked pretty sweet. Are helical cutters good for jointing tops? It seems that the blades are little squares that can be rotated when they're dull. It also appears this type of cutter might be easier to set up than continuous blades. Anyone here using that type? As with all else, you're gonna get mixed feelings about it. Not sure I would pursue the concept specifically for the intent of jointing tops, though. Where the helical insert design really shines is as Todd mentioned- the surfacing of figured wood. Personally, if the benefits are needed, I would look at something other than a "benchtop" model. I've had a few at home over the years, and most of those will give you headaches. By nature, they're built light, which is not good for holding adjustment (providing you can even adjust the way you need). You need the jointer itself to provide/hold the necessary settings first. No matter how high-quality the cutter head (or the design of it), all is for naught if the rest of the machine is not up to the task. |
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| Author: | grumpy [ Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Helical Jointers.... |
How do the helix cutters compare when it comes time to change them? I dread changing my straight knives and cuss and curse the entire time I'm setting them(and there are just 3 of 'em!), and can't imagine setting-up a dozen or more small cutters? I'll add that it's been years since I changed my jointer(6" Delta) knives. I've gotten the hang of sharpening them on the machine with my handy-dandy Dia-Sharp diamond "stone". Takes but a few minutes, literally, to have fresh, nick-free knives once again. I only use the jointer for jointing, and for flattening a slightly warped surface. For surfacing, especially with figured or abrasive woods, I head to the thickness sander.... EDIT: I'll toss-in an age-old woodworker's trick for dealing with nicks in jointer and planer knives. When the knives are still sharp and cutting well, but you find they somehow got nicked and now leave that frustrating "bump" along the full length of the board you just ran through the jointer or planer, just loosen one knife, and tape it to one side by 1/16" or so, snug it back up(don't loosen it completely! just loose enough to move slightly when tapped with a hammer and brass bar), then loosen the next one, and tap it in the opposite direction by 1/16" or so, and bingo! Back to a fresh, smooth surface.... |
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| Author: | grumpy [ Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Helical Jointers.... |
So, the inserts are so precise that no adjustment is ever necessary, and they all come-out exactly level? |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Helical Jointers.... |
I use my normal jointer (regular head) to get the parts (top/back) roughed in. Then, I use spray glue to attach sand paper to the jointer surface and shoot along it to fine adjust. Paper comes off and cleans up with mineral spirits. |
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| Author: | Clinchriver [ Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:03 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Helical Jointers.... |
grumpy wrote: So, the inserts are so precise that no adjustment is ever necessary, and they all come-out exactly level? Yes on the Byrd Tool Shelix cutter head, My dad has one in his Powermatic 8 inch joiner and I have a 4x3 pattern head for my shaper, perfect finish every time. |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Helical Jointers.... |
I'll confess the ease of setup is a major attractor to the helical head. I have a little Delta benchtop two blader, and it can't be set up to shoot tops. I've spent hours and hours trying to level the beds, set the knives etc, failing even with the magnetic jigs and good straightedges etc. I've given up. The steel city seems much more stable. Maybe just because of the granite beds. They also have a short floor model that is a nice price, but parking in Vancouver is at a premium, in my workshop especially so... |
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| Author: | John Sonksen [ Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Helical Jointers.... |
I was over at another builder's house a few weeks ago looking at his helical jointer. He said it was one of his best investments in tooling he's ever made. Not only will it go through burl and fiddleback with no chipout, he said that because of the layout of the cutters it actually pulls the wood down onto the table and over to the fence. He said he regularly face joints very thin stock over it and is never worried it's going to blow up on him. Thin like 1/8" and below which I would never try on a straight knife setup. |
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| Author: | klooker [ Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Helical Jointers.... |
The high precision needed to make a good helical head like a Byrd is not cheap. That's one of the reasons I'm always very suspicious of knock off heads offered by the importers. The first knock off heads they offered were not helical - the cutting edges were parallel with the head axis. The newer generation have the cutters angled like the Byrd but not nearly as many cutters. Buyer beware. Kevin Looker |
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| Author: | klooker [ Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Helical Jointers.... |
To get the best performance out of a jointer, I have to use a dial indicator when installing knives & setting the out feed table. Kevin Looker |
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| Author: | Alex Kleon [ Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Helical Jointers.... |
klooker wrote: To get the best performance out of a jointer, I have to use a dial indicator when installing knives & setting the out feed table. Thats a great idea, Kevin. Kevin Looker  I wish I knew that for the last 30 years! ![[headinwall]](./images/smilies/headbangwalluf8.gif "Mad") An 8" spiral is my next upgrade tooling purchase. I'm just not looking forward to getting a 600lb. jointer into my basement shop. Alex |
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| Author: | Kent Chasson [ Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Helical Jointers.... |
grumpy wrote: How do the helix cutters compare when it comes time to change them? .... I wouldn't know. After about 20 months, I haven't had to rotate them. I have Byrd heads too and never had a problem with rippling. Would never go back to straight knives. They are quieter too. |
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| Author: | klooker [ Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Helical Jointers.... |
Alex Kleon wrote: Thats a great idea, Kevin. I wish I knew that for the last 30 years! ... Wish I could take credit for it but it wasn't my idea. Here's my setup, you can make one out of wood with magnets in the base to make it stick to the table - assuming it's metal & not granite. Kevin Looker |
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| Author: | ballbanjos [ Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Helical Jointers.... |
B. Howard wrote: I have not been happy with the surface left by helical heads used in thickness planers. They all leave a slightly scalloped surface that really annoys me. I have not used one in a joiner but imagine the quality of cut would be the same. I prefer and use carbide tipped knives instead. A few years back, I got a Byrd replacement head for my 6 inch jointer. It left the scalloped surface that you mention--some lines (similar to what you'd get with a nicked knife too). I had read somewhere online that Byrd had moved their shop around the same time I got my cutter head, and that there had been some setup problems with production around that time. I emailed Byrd and sent them a sample of what kind of results I was getting. They agreed that I wasn't getting the surface that I should and promptly sent me a new cutterhead which has worked flawlessly. No scallops, no lines--even on really difficult surfaces that I would have previously only taken to a sander. The Shelix cutterhead is one of the biggest improvements to my shop life that I have encountered. But having seen and used a less-than-perfect Shelix head, I can see how knockoffs or even some of Byrd heads could be disappointing. A good one, however, takes jointers to a new level. Dave |
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| Author: | murrmac [ Sun Dec 02, 2012 7:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Helical Jointers.... |
klooker wrote: To get the best performance out of a jointer, I have to use a dial indicator when installing knives & setting the out feed table. Kevin Looker For installing knives, absolutely, but for setting the outfeed table, I find it more convenient to use the time-honored method of laying an aluminum straightedge on the outfeed table and adjusting the table height so that manually turning the cutter block drags the straightedge for no more than 1/8". |
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