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Gotoh Open Back Tuners from LMI
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Author:  klooker [ Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Gotoh Open Back Tuners from LMI
LMI offers the Gotoh open back tuners in brass, & not brass - I assume they're talking about the gear?

The brass ones cost about 25% more. Does anyone have experience with both? Are the brass worth the up-charge in your opinion?

Thanks,
Kevin Looker
Author:  Tom West [ Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gotoh Open Back Tuners from LMI
Have never used the Gotoh open backs but have used Grovers and they have a brass or bronze worm wheel. Also a bit cheaper at Stew-Mac.
Tom
Author:  Fred Tellier [ Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gotoh Open Back Tuners from LMI
I have used the brass gear Gotoh and grover open backs and the Gotoh are light years better than the grover and worth the extra money. The only thing is I wish they were 18:1 ratio instead of 15:1.

Fred
Author:  grumpy [ Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Gotoh Open Back Tuners from LMI
The only thing is I wish they were 18:1 ratio instead of 15:1.


Sorry Fred, but not no, but he!! no!

I detest.

No!

Hate...

...this "trend" to lower an lower(higher numerically) ratios. They just make the tuner feel "lazy". And doing alternate tunings? May as well bring a cordless drill with you to help spin those lazy 18:1 machines... All the ad copy about them being more "precise" or "accurate" is just that; ad copy BS...

I'm still hoping someone will wake-up and offer a 10:1 or, better yet, an 8:1 tuner, once again!
Author:  DennisK [ Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Gotoh Open Back Tuners from LMI
grumpy wrote:
I'm still hoping someone will wake-up and offer a 10:1 or, better yet, an 8:1 tuner, once again!

Yes! I thought I was the only one.

I love friction pegs on nylon strings. So much faster than fighting them in those slots, and then turning the gear 100 times.

My harp ukulele has steel strings on 4:1 geared pegs, and that's pushing it in terms of tuning accuracy, but it is really nice to be able to flatten the E harp string with just a few degrees turn of the peg to play in C minor. Practically like having a sharping lever. I think 8:1 would be just about perfect for steel strings.

I'll suggest that to Chuck Herin, since I'm going to be ordering some pegheds for a harp guitar soon. He currently makes 4:1 and 16:1, which I bought one of each to test out and see which would be better before ordering the whole bunch. But maybe I can do 8:1 on the next harp guitar after this :)
Author:  B. Howard [ Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Gotoh Open Back Tuners from LMI
I too am no fan of high numerical ratio tuners. Never really understood why folks wanted them. I use the Schaller vintage style open backs from lmi , great tuners. 12:1 ratio, very well made and priced about the same as the gotoh's. I have wore guitars out and the only things worth keeping were the pickups and the Schaller tuners.
Author:  klooker [ Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Gotoh Open Back Tuners from LMI
Looks like we're heading in the direction of crunchy vs. creamy.

Back to my original question, if I may, how does everyone feel about the brass gear vs. the non-brass gear version of the Gotohs? I'm cheap at heart & need help making a decision. If the brass is better in the long run I'm willing to pay extra. Are the Schaller's brass?

Thanks,
Kevin Looker
Author:  Fred Tellier [ Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Gotoh Open Back Tuners from LMI
Kevin if you want cheap get the grovers, but be warned they are not as good. Wilkinson open back are available cheaper but I have never tried them. The difference of over $10 means that there is more involved than the gear. I have learned that cheap tuners are just not cost effective.

Sorry Mario and others but I like high ratio, my favorite is the Gotoh 510 delta 21:1 great for on the fly alternate tuning changes.

Fred
Author:  klooker [ Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Gotoh Open Back Tuners from LMI
I guess cheap is not entirely accurate. I just don't want to pay extra for bling.

I've tried the Grovers & think they're ok, but not great. That's why I'm looking at the Gotoh's and maybe the Schallers.

Thanks,
Kevin Looker
Author:  grumpy [ Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Gotoh Open Back Tuners from LMI
Haven't used them, but typically, brass is slightly smoother, and longer lasting, since brass contains a small amount of lead which makes it self-lubricating; this may, or may not be an issue for you. The non-brass gear would be best if you're going after a period-specific look, since many(all?) of the pre-war open-back tuners used a non-brass gear.

Sorry about the ratio highjack.... ;)
Author:  Piiman [ Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gotoh Open Back Tuners from LMI
Hey Fred Just want to let you know you're not alone. Those 1:21 Gotohs' are smooooth like butttta!!!
Author:  DennisK [ Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gotoh Open Back Tuners from LMI
grumpy wrote:
Sorry about the ratio highjack.... ;)

:lol: One more post on the subject, just for everyone's information... Chuck says it's a no go on 8:1 pegheds with his current tooling. I ran my tests, and decided to go with 4:1 on my harp guitar. 16:1 is a little easier to tune, but not much, and takes a lot longer to wind up of course. I figure with 13 strings, that's enough time saved on each string change to give it the win :P Plus the quick retuning for major/minor keys, since I'm not doing sharping levers on this one.
Author:  John Arnold [ Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gotoh Open Back Tuners from LMI
12:1 works just fine for me. I don't like a higher numerical ratio because IMHO it is just wasted motion....especially when changing strings.
I cannot imagine plated gears being inferior to plain brass ones. The prewar Grovers had plated brass gears, and they have stood the test of time.
Author:  Quine [ Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gotoh Open Back Tuners from LMI
So what makes a "good tuner" anyway?
I've used the Gotoh tuners on slot heads and they are fine. I don't recall any option for brass or not brass at the time I bought them. I chose them mostly because they were narrower than the Grover version and allow for a thinner headstock. I've used Grover open backs on a few peg heads and they also seem fine to me.
By "fine" I mean they work smoothly, no rattles or looseness in the gear or buttons, hold the tension, no sharp edges on the post to cut strings, and the finish looks good (only a few years experience on that though). I've used Gotoh, Shaller, and Grover and they all worked...well...fine.

So what makes one brand better to you guys? I'd like to know what you're looking for in a tuner. Am I missing something in how a tuner should perform? Am I settling for hot dogs in a fillet mignon world??
Author:  B. Howard [ Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gotoh Open Back Tuners from LMI
Schaller specs list brass posts, but don't spec any other materials. According to pics on their site of the chrome version the gears are brass as well. LMI has the Schaller's for less than the Gotoh's. I like em, but I've always been a Schaller man s to speak. Usually the first thing I would change when I picked up a new axe.

As to what makes a good tuner, well at least what I am looking for, smooth working and zero backlash are mandatory. Post to bushing fit must be tight, precise and consistent. Quality of finish is important as well and that would be the one area the Schaller vintage's come up a little short. They are by no means ugly, but the metal polishing under the gold plate is not the best I have ever seen. The M-6's have a flawless finish, 10 of 10, these are a7-8 in that dept. But at $57 for a quality gold plated tuner I think they are a value.
Author:  DennisK [ Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gotoh Open Back Tuners from LMI
Brian pretty much covered it. Smooth turning (some cheap tuners have rough spots in their rotation cycle, where it takes more force to turn it), nice tight feel, where turning the key turns the gear immediately, in either direction (some have a bit of looseness, where when you reverse direction, you have to turn the key a bit before it grabs the gear), good finish, and so on.

Another point that has a big influence on me is weight. I like the look of closed back tuners, but they're way too heavy. One of my favorite things about geared pegs is that they're about half the weight of even the open backed Grover sta-tites. Major concern on harp guitars, with so many strings plus a harp arm dangling up there, and not much additional weight below the waist compared to a normal guitar to counter-balance it. But I also like to build light weight regular guitars, so sta-tites are still about as heavy as I like to go.
Author:  grumpy [ Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Gotoh Open Back Tuners from LMI
So what makes a "good tuner" anyway?

That will depend on the user, and the use. If weight is THE only factor, then friction pegs will be a good tuner. If looks are THE only factor, then whatever pleases the eye of the user, will be a good tuner. If smoothness in operation is THE only factor, then whatever feels smooth to the user will be a good tuner.

If.....

See where this is headed?

A "good tuner" is what -you- decide is good. If for you, all it has to do is bring a string to pitch and hold it there, then any tuner will be a good tuner, so may as well get the cheapest things you can find....

But nobody is that simple, really? Of course not! So, we have to decide where our priorities lie, and choose accordingly.

Me? I love fine workmanship and good engineering, both of which leads to something that pleases my eye. Weight is important, but if it comes down to a gram or two per set, then the first rule trumps. I also hate to over-spend, but knowing that a set of tuners should last 100 years, the cost differences between the choices that fit the first 3 requirements becomes pretty much moot.

And then there's smoothness in operation. This can actually fall under my first requirement, since good engineering and fine workmanship -should- lead to smooth, flawless operation, but it isn't always the case.

Now, what is "smooth"? Well, that will again depend on the end user. Remember back in grade school, when the teacher accidentally(or not..) touched the blackboard with his/her fingernail, or maybe the chalk had a nick in it, and caused that "--screech/squeal--" sound that sent shivers down the spines of at least half the students? Well, I was one of the half that got shivers, big time, every time that happened. Yet the other half of the students weren't bothered... This tells me that some of us can sense smoothness, and the lack thereof, more so than others. Me, I'm hyper-sensitive. I disassemble the doorknobs in our home every now and then and give them a good cleaning and pack 'em with a high quality grease. I oil the hinges. I kid you not! I HATE a rough, scratchy doorknob! Even if the door doesn't squeak when opened or closed, if the hinges are dry, it grates on my nerves! Every drawer in my shop is on full-pull, all ball-bearing slides. I don't want stuff to move smoothly, I NEED stuff to move smoothly. I'm quirky that way, but I am what I am. Oh, and don't even get me started on pencils and pens! Heck, I've even tossed-out entire, new, note pads because the paper was scratchy.....

So for me, first and foremost, what makes a good tuner is smoothness in operation. But that's just me.... Most of you have likely never even noticed if your homes' and shops' doors operate smoothly or not, so for you, what makes a good tuner will take-on a different set of criteria....

And this long-winded story was simply to say that, what is a good tuner to you, is whatever it takes to be good, for you.
Author:  jonsse [ Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Gotoh Open Back Tuners from LMI
Quote:
So what makes a "good tuner" anyway?

That will depend on the user, and the use. If weight is THE only factor, then friction pegs will be a good tuner. If looks are THE only factor, then whatever pleases the eye of the user, will be a good tuner. If smoothness in operation is THE only factor, then whatever feels smooth to the user will be a good tuner.

If.....

See where this is headed?

A "good tuner" is what -you- decide is good. If for you, all it has to do is bring a string to pitch and hold it there, then any tuner will be a good tuner, so may as well get the cheapest things you can find....

But nobody is that simple, really? Of course not! So, we have to decide where our priorities lie, and choose accordingly.

Me? I love fine workmanship and good engineering, both of which leads to something that pleases my eye. Weight is important, but if it comes down to a gram or two per set, then the first rule trumps. I also hate to over-spend, but knowing that a set of tuners should last 100 years, the cost differences between the choices that fit the first 3 requirements becomes pretty much moot.

And then there's smoothness in operation. This can actually fall under my first requirement, since good engineering and fine workmanship -should- lead to smooth, flawless operation, but it isn't always the case.

Now, what is "smooth"? Well, that will again depend on the end user. Remember back in grade school, when the teacher accidentally(or not..) touched the blackboard with his/her fingernail, or maybe the chalk had a nick in it, and caused that "--screech/squeal--" sound that sent shivers down the spines of at least half the students? Well, I was one of the half that got shivers, big time, every time that happened. Yet the other half of the students weren't bothered... This tells me that some of us can sense smoothness, and the lack thereof, more so than others. Me, I'm hyper-sensitive. I disassemble the doorknobs in our home every now and then and give them a good cleaning and pack 'em with a high quality grease. I oil the hinges. I kid you not! I HATE a rough, scratchy doorknob! Even if the door doesn't squeak when opened or closed, if the hinges are dry, it grates on my nerves! Every drawer in my shop is on full-pull, all ball-bearing slides. I don't want stuff to move smoothly, I NEED stuff to move smoothly. I'm quirky that way, but I am what I am. Oh, and don't even get me started on pencils and pens! Heck, I've even tossed-out entire, new, note pads because the paper was scratchy.....

So for me, first and foremost, what makes a good tuner is smoothness in operation. But that's just me.... Most of you have likely never even noticed if your homes' and shops' doors operate smoothly or not, so for you, what makes a good tuner will take-on a different set of criteria....

And this long-winded story was simply to say that, what is a good tuner to you, is whatever it takes to be good, for you.


But haven't you got a beard ?
Author:  grumpy [ Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gotoh Open Back Tuners from LMI
But haven't you got a beard ?

Sure 'nuff, but what's that got to do with the price of bananas?
Author:  murrmac [ Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gotoh Open Back Tuners from LMI
grumpy wrote:
Haven't used them, but typically, brass is slightly smoother, and longer lasting, since brass contains a small amount of lead which makes it self-lubricating; this may, or may not be an issue for you. The non-brass gear would be best if you're going after a period-specific look, since many(all?) of the pre-war open-back tuners used a non-brass gear.

Sorry about the ratio highjack.... ;)


In pedantic mode, I feel it incumbent upon me to point out that not all brasses contain lead.

I would be surprised if the gears in tuners were made from an alloy containing lead. I would have thought that there would be more likely to be an aluminum content, which makes for a harder wearing brass.

However, as Mario is well aware, I have been wrong before...

btw, I don't get the beard thing either, and I usually have an infallible eye for internet irony ...this one passes me by ...
Author:  jonsse [ Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gotoh Open Back Tuners from LMI
Just hijacking your hijack. Seemed like a contradiction :lol: [uncle]
Author:  jonsse [ Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gotoh Open Back Tuners from LMI
Quote:
btw, I don't get the beard thing either, and I usually have an infallible eye for internet irony ...this one passes me by ...


You get it. OCD's AND a beard.

I'll stop now. x
Author:  klooker [ Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gotoh Open Back Tuners from LMI
I assumed he meant "scratchy beard", which would be ironic.

Also, Dopey is the only one without a beard so he probably doesn't want to be mistaken for him.

Back on topic, I want an open back tuner with minimal backlash that cost less than Waverleys. The Grovers weren't doing it for me.

Kevin Looker
Author:  B. Howard [ Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gotoh Open Back Tuners from LMI
I got it, or did I?????

Answer was so long winded he grew a beard?
Author:  Darrel Friesen [ Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gotoh Open Back Tuners from LMI
I think it was the scratchy as opposed to smooth. beehive
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