Official Luthiers Forum!
http://luthiersforum.com/forum/

Brazilian Ebony
http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=39032		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Goodin [ Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Brazilian Ebony
I made a trip to Jeffries yesterday (Knoxville area peeps know what an awesome wood place this is) and I came across some wood I have never seen before called Brazilian ebony. The owner also referred to it as Gombeina. I can't find hardly anything about this wood but I did discover that the scientific name is apparently Sartzia tomentosa and it is also referred to as Lapacho Ipe, Brazilian Walnut, Ironwood, Irontree and Tajibo.

It seems to be very heavy and dense much like true ebonies. It has straight tight grain and a very dark brown color with larger pores than a true ebony. I was pleasantly surprised to see that it seems VERY stable as there are absolutely no cracks, checks, cupping, or warping of any kind. The temp and humidity is unregulated at Jeffries so it has been out in the elements.

The price is relatively cheap at only $13/bf so I had to get a board just for the heck of it. I got this 6" wide board and over 6' long for about $35. It's enough to make numerous fretboards, bridges, etc. I asked the owner if she could get any 8" wide boards and she said no not in the last 20 years.

So does anyone have any experience with this wood? I was thinking it may be good for bridges and fretboards since it is dark and seems stable. Here are some pics. I wiped on some fretboard oil...

Attachment:
IMG_4829.JPG
Attachment:
IMG_4828.JPG

Attachment:
IMG_4833.JPG
Attachment:
IMG_4832.JPG

Attachment:
IMG_4831.JPG
Attachment:
IMG_4830.JPG
Author:  Tobes [ Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Brazilian Ebony
I just looked this up on the Janka scale. Two listings. #5 Brazilian Ebony 3692, #6 Brazilian Walnut 3684. So yeah, it would definitely be a good candidate for fretboards and bridges. Not sure how open the pores are which might trap dirt and grime over time unless you filled them. I don't know...
Sounds like a good deal. Also you can wipe the wood with denatured alcohol to see what the grain will look like finished without leaving any moisture or residue afterwards.
Author:  Alex Kleon [ Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Brazilian Ebony
Gil - I would be careful using that wood for any guitar parts. There are many "exotic" named woods that are pretty unstable once taken out of their region of growth. Many are used in flooring, and are given appealing names to catch buyers. I researched some flooring for my nephew that was called Brazilian Teak, that turned out to be Cumaru. As a flooring, many had issues with stability. That could be from poor processing and kiln drying, but I would be wary all the same.

Alex
Author:  forgottenwoods [ Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Brazilian Ebony
This is one of the species that the flooring industry mixes and sells with Ipe.

Probably will dull your fret saw fast.

Characteristics: Timber is very hard, heavy, strong and stiff. Tends to
check considerably in drying, and should be seasoned slowly and carefully.
Fibre saturation point moderately low. Difficult to work, though finishes
smoothly. Turns well and takes a high polish. Pre-boring essential for
nails and screws. Very resistant to termites but prone to marine borer
attack. Resistant to impregnation with preservatives. Very durable in
exposed situations. Used in the round. Dust may cause irritation to
mucous membranes in nose and throat.
Author:  Goodin [ Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Brazilian Ebony
Thanks for the replies guys. Lance that seems about like the working characteristics for African/Gaboon Ebony, no?
Author:  forgottenwoods [ Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Brazilian Ebony
Goodin wrote:
Thanks for the replies guys. Lance that seems about like the working characteristics for African/Gaboon Ebony, no?


Generally yes.

You can't really depend on what you find written about the working properties of unknown tropical species. First off the species ID may not be correct botanically so using the commercially provided botanical name may be misleading. Second likely no one has evaluated the species for "fine" wood working uses due to it's difficulty to work with hand tools.
It is probably a lot more stable than Ebony, once it is dry it should not move and react much to environmental changes. It should not crack and split like ebony.

The limiting factor is that the wood probably has a high silica content and will dull saw blades very quickly. Most of the milling done on these dense species is done while the wood is still wet, once dried it is very hard (ironwood?). But here again you don't know positive the species so you don't know if the wood has silica. The only way to learn these things is to try it. If you can cut the fret slots it should make a good fingerboard.

Long term stability should be good. This group of "Ipe" species is proving to be the most stable dense wood for outdoor decking... because it is stable and does not react strongly to extreme environmental changes. I have some test samples of related species that are extremely stable.

Cut a fingerboard blank from your board and determine the moisture content to know if it is finished drying.
Put the blank in your oven and bake it and see what happens....does it crack or warp?

Good on you for looking at alternatives!
Author:  John Arnold [ Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Brazilian Ebony
I have resawn a few boards, and while difficult, it is not the most ornery wood I have cut. I use steel blades (no carbide), and the blade life is pretty short when cutting these types of woods.
Density is in the 80 lbs/cu ft range.
My main thrust has been for fingerboards and bridges, but Nathan Hampton has sold a few sets on Ebay. He compares it favorably to African Blackwood. Being in the legume family, it is more closely related to rosewood than true ebony.
Author:  Goodin [ Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Brazilian Ebony
John Arnold wrote:
I have resawn a few boards, and while difficult, it is not the most ornery wood I have cut. I use steel blades (no carbide), and the blade life is pretty short when cutting these types of woods.
Density is in the 80 lbs/cu ft range.
My main thrust has been for fingerboards and bridges, but Nathan Hampton has sold a few sets on Ebay. He compares it favorably to African Blackwood. Being in the legume family, it is more closely related to rosewood than true ebony.


I've been doing some more research. John what do you think this really is? I feel certain it's Ipe, Tabebuia spp. (T. guayacan, T. serratifolia, etc.) but it looks like Katalox as well (Mexican Ebony, Swartzia cubensis) although a bit darker and more grainy than Katalox. LMI sells katalox for fingerboards and says Martin has used it for fingerboards with good success.

I will cut up some test pieces. If it's not too terrible on the saws I think this will make great fingerboards and bridges.
Author:  Stephen47 [ Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Brazilian Ebony
The experience I've had with Ipe is that it doesn't glue up well. Even wiping the joint with acetone or lacquer thinner right before gluing up with West system epoxy resulted in failure. Fine Woodworking did a glue test and it says the best glue to use with Ipe is TitebondIII.
Also just looking at it gives you splinters.
Author:  Goodin [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Brazilian Ebony
Stephen47 wrote:
The experience I've had with Ipe is that it doesn't glue up well. Even wiping the joint with acetone or lacquer thinner right before gluing up with West system epoxy resulted in failure. Fine Woodworking did a glue test and it says the best glue to use with Ipe is TitebondIII.
Also just looking at it gives you splinters.


Thanks for this info Stephen. I'll try not to look at it directly :lol:
Author:  John Arnold [ Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Brazilian Ebony
The stuff I have cut (which also came from Jeffries) is Swartzia tomentosa, not ipe. I haven't actually glued any of it yet, but I suspect that it is not as difficult to glue as ipe.
FYI, Cynthia has been really good about providing the species name of the various imported woods they sell at Jeffries. Considering the variety of woods they carry or have carried in the past, it's a formidable job to keep up with all of them.
Jeffries has been pretty active in buying out old stashes from local woodworkers, and I have assisted them in identifying some of the more common species like pau ferro, African mahogany, and Honduran RW.
Page 1 of 1 All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/