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| Planing your tonewood to thickness http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=39970 |
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| Author: | James Orr [ Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Planing your tonewood to thickness |
I'm curious as to whether or not any of your thickness your tonewood by hand? I've been on a big handtool resurgence lately and love the way planes feel in the hand. Is anyone else out there crazy enough to forego the sander? |
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| Author: | B. Howard [ Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Planing your tonewood to thickness |
All the time. Here is a link to a pair of guitars I am blogging over at KGF, there are some pics in there. http://www.kitguitarsforum.com/board/vi ... =48&t=5824 I got no room for a sander and I am tired of having to wear ear protection all the time. Then there is breathing the dust that the collector doesn't grab. Tired of all that after 30 years, plus it's good cardio. |
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| Author: | DennisK [ Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Planing your tonewood to thickness |
Yup. I use a block plane, optionally with toothed blade if the wood calls for it, followed by Carruth scraper, and a rickety homemade thickness caliper to check for thick/thin spots. Still pretty dusty (I wear a paper mask, which seems to get most of it), but quiet and saves a lot of money and space (which costs money) compared to a sander+dust collector, plus I just enjoy it. I'm getting pretty fast at it these days too... the sharper you can get your tools, the quicker it goes. |
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| Author: | Trevor Gore [ Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Planing your tonewood to thickness |
I wouldn't want to do it any other way. |
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| Author: | Pmaj7 [ Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Planing your tonewood to thickness |
I mostly do tops with a plane so I can graduate the thickness . And its fun. Sharp sharp sharp! Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2 |
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| Author: | Laidback1 [ Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Planing your tonewood to thickness |
What kind of plan are you gents using? Low angle jack? Smoother? Size? On average how long does it take you? Have been thinking about doing it myself. Would love to hear others experience...... |
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| Author: | Michael.N. [ Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Planing your tonewood to thickness |
Quickest way is to get hold of two No. 4 's, old Stanley/Record will do. Put a large camber on one of the Plane blades and use that as a gentle type of 'scrub plane'. It's for removing material pretty fast. Use the other as a smoother. Get the blades seriously sharp. Plane whichever way the wood determines. I frequently go across the grain if necessary, especially on figured wood. You certainly can use something larger than a No.4 but remember that if you have a lot of planing to do the extra weight begins to tell. That's partly why some people love woodies. The light weight and slick feel is less tiring. You could also try an anti slip mat under the wood, might spare all that clamping although I've yet to try a mat. |
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| Author: | James Orr [ Sat Apr 06, 2013 2:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Planing your tonewood to thickness |
Laidback1 wrote: What kind of plan are you gents using? Low angle jack? Smoother? Size? On average how long does it take you? Have been thinking about doing it myself. Would love to hear others experience...... Keep in mind that I'm still just toying with this, but I have a Lie-Nielsen #5. I'd love to somehow add a #7 and a #4 1/2. My smaller 60 1/2 and model maker's plane don't get used for this. |
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| Author: | Trevor Gore [ Sat Apr 06, 2013 5:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Planing your tonewood to thickness |
Everyone tends to do things differently, but here's what I do: Get some after-market blades; LN or LV are fine (or from your local blade guru). A2 or HSS is my preference. They hold an edge a lot longer than a stock Stanley/Bailey blade. I find that size 4 planes are the wrong size for anything on a guitar and never use mine for guitar work (or much else, for that matter!) A #5 set up as a scrub plane shifts wood fast, especially used cross grain on backs. A #5 1/2 is great for all in-line smoothing on softwoods You'll need something high angle for finishing curly woods in-line (I customised a #6 into a high angle, but the LV low angle jack set up for high angle works very well - but a little more difficult to get a good high angle edge) For sides, I usually plane both sides together, cross grain and use a #7 in light scrub mode, because the toe is long enough to hold down the second side before the blade hits the first. So I can plane both sides in little more time than it takes most people to plane one. High and low angle block planes are good for "spot facing", e.g. thinning upper bout sides for Venetian cutaways. I have my bench set up so I'm almost always planing into a stop and rarely use clamps, but make sure you know your wood and your planes before you try that on thin sides. Sizes 4 1/2, 5 1/2, 6 and 7 all have the same width blades, which is handy if you have some set up for scrub planing as you can swap them around. If you have thick and thin blades, you can swap from scrub mode to panel plane mode just by swapping the blade. A well set up plane is a magnificent tool. A poorly set up one is just a lump of metal. |
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| Author: | Bybee [ Sat Apr 06, 2013 5:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Planing your tonewood to thickness |
Now that we have all that info. Does anyone know of a good tutorial on planes? Book, website, etc. |
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| Author: | ernie [ Sat Apr 06, 2013 11:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Planing your tonewood to thickness |
Currently reading a book on planes by scott wynn , which you can borrow from library IMHO a great book, and scott answers e- mails for questions. Toshio Odate if you are into japanese planes, warning, long learning curve but great blades. |
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| Author: | murrmac [ Sat Apr 06, 2013 2:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Planing your tonewood to thickness |
Trevor Gore wrote: Everyone tends to do things differently, but here's what I do: Get some after-market blades; LN or LV are fine (or from your local blade guru). A2 or HSS is my preference. They hold an edge a lot longer than a stock Stanley/Bailey blade. Are HSS blades still available ? And is the HSS a welded insert ? I know that some years ago they were obtainable from Paul Williams in Australia, but I haven't heard much about them since ...I always wondered what sort of edge you could put on an HSS blade ...my gut feeling is that an HSS blade probably wouldn't win any awards in any of the Japanese "thinnest shaving" competitions ... |
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| Author: | ernie [ Sat Apr 06, 2013 2:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Planing your tonewood to thickness |
Murray I have the high angle chinese smoother from J. woodworker or LV, the HSS and high angle work vy well at taking uber thin shavings from hdwds e.g. rosewood , ebony, etc. Perhaps there are suppliers in UKor europe for hss, also older english cast steel blades cleaned and repurposed , one can find on ebay uk would work just as well as the HSS IMHO.I have one such blade recycled into a high angle smoother an works vy well without a chipbreaker. |
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| Author: | mqbernardo [ Sat Apr 06, 2013 4:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Planing your tonewood to thickness |
don´t knwo if it´s the same plane as yours, but i have this one and i like the blade. i get as fine shavings as with my O1 blades - but then again maybe one needs to get better at sharpening to take advantage of O1. in any case, not that hard to sharpen and holds the edge well. edit: forgot the link: http://www.mehr-als-werkzeug.de/product ... -44-mm.htm |
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| Author: | Arnt Rian [ Sat Apr 06, 2013 4:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Planing your tonewood to thickness |
I usually hand plane tops (backs and sides go through the drum sander, however). I prefer to use a really old Bailey 5 1/5, I find it just about perfect for both jointing and planing guitar plates. This vintage had a slightly narrower bladen than later models, which I like, and it has an aftermarket iron and chip breaker from Hock which is also an improvement over the original. I find hand planing tops both enjoyable and educational, plus it makes it very easy to thin the perimeter of the lower bout, which I normally do. |
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| Author: | Trevor Gore [ Sat Apr 06, 2013 7:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Planing your tonewood to thickness |
murrmac wrote: Are HSS blades still available ? And is the HSS a welded insert ? I know that some years ago they were obtainable from Paul Williams in Australia... That's where mine came from, when Paul ran Academy Saw in Rydalmere, which is pretty local to me. He then moved to Caloundra in QLD and continued there. The last blade I got from him in Rydalmere was 2003 (engraved on the blade). I have a few and they last a long time! Mine are all HSS all through. He now makes blades for HNT Gordon. I use DMT "stones" for sharpening and have absolutely no problem getting thin shavings. But the real issues are reducing the thickness and smoothing without tear-out. No problems there, either, but the blade is only part of the solution. |
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| Author: | Tai Fu [ Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Planing your tonewood to thickness |
I use Wagner Safe T Planer then finish with hand plane (taking very light shavings to avoid tear out) after the plates are joined. Problem with the Wagner is that dust collection is almost always futile. Seems no matter what I do the shavings always manage to get out. Also the DC wasn't so good with the Safe T Planer because much of the shavings formed a bundle which ended up clogging the piping. I guess I really need a cyclone pre-separator. |
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| Author: | AnthonyE [ Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Planing your tonewood to thickness |
I agree with Todd in that HSS steel might want to be avoided for a while until you are completely comfortable sharpening 01 or A2 steel at the most. HSS can sometimes require a different sharpening setup to get truly sharp. I recommend diamonds for the grunt work on HSS and maybe finish up with a nice finish stone such as a Sigma 16000 or similar. But again, there really is nothing wrong with 01 and A2 steels and feel that HSS is sometimes not worth the extra effort. |
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| Author: | Trevor Gore [ Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Planing your tonewood to thickness |
I've never measured it, but I'd say that the HSS blades hold an edge maybe ~20% longer on average than A2, in the planing I do. No more than that. So if they're not readily available I wouldn't go busting a gut trying to find one. Regarding the sharpening, I can't say I've noticed a difference between HSS and A2. No issues with either provided you don't let the honing bevel get too big. |
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| Author: | Michael.N. [ Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Planing your tonewood to thickness |
O1, A2, HSS: they all work. Even the Chinese HSS that comes with the wooden Planes is decent. Takes a bit longer to get HSS truly sharp but of course it lasts longer. For HSS I use a 8,000 waterstone followed by a strop. For O1 and A2 I use my Arkansas and strop simply because the stone dishes less and the time taken to get a good edge on that type of steel is not much of a factor. I've used longer Planes (5.5, No. 6) for stock removal and smoothing and whilst it certainly works I find using such Planes much more tiring when faced with thicknessing several guitar sets one after the other. If you can learn to use a wooden Plane (they are frequently used as scrub Planes by furniture makers) they are even more of an advantage when doing multiple sets. Some people love them, some hate them. It shouldn't cost you much to find out though. Decent old coffin type English smoothers can be had for a lot less than the price of a replacement blade. In fact there is a good chance that the old blade will be as good as any O1 blade you can buy now. |
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| Author: | John A [ Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Planing your tonewood to thickness |
I tuned my band saw enough to get me a real thin consistent slice of wood. I recently purchased a nice plane - low angle jack, and have focused on thinning my wood with it rather than the Wagner or any sanding. It has been an enjoyable experience as I have been working on my bending skills with a new form I built. As I crack a side (the fine tuning part), I quickly process another side for testing, takes about 20 minutes. Planing the wood has simplified my shop and process a lot and that I am grateful for. |
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| Author: | crazymanmichael [ Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Planing your tonewood to thickness |
over the years i've used every plane (all auction, garage sale or flea market acquisitions) i have at one time or another. but i always reach for the 5 first. to me the 6 or 7 has always seemed like overkill; a bit like using a sledge to swat a fly. or so i thought until i read the idea above for doing both sides at the same time. will have to try that. the 4 is okay for smaller plates. and the block planes are handy when coping with twisty grain. i must admit to being a contrarian though; never felt the need to use anything other than the standard stanley, sergeant record, etc. irons. i suppose the high end irons may retain an edge a bit longer, but keeping the cut fine and the iron sharpe has always sufficed. i have spares so if one dulls it only takes a moment to change it out. and i don't mind sharpening. it's rather a bit like meditation after a while. |
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| Author: | fric [ Thu Apr 11, 2013 2:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Planing your tonewood to thickness |
best |
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| Author: | AnthonyE [ Thu Apr 11, 2013 4:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Planing your tonewood to thickness |
Trevor Gore wrote: I've never measured it, but I'd say that the HSS blades hold an edge maybe ~20% longer on average than A2, in the planing I do. No more than that. So if they're not readily available I wouldn't go busting a gut trying to find one. Regarding the sharpening, I can't say I've noticed a difference between HSS and A2. No issues with either provided you don't let the honing bevel get too big. I might agree with you about HSS not being more difficult to sharpen but only because you are set up DMT stones to begin with. For someone set up with all oil or water stones I truly think HSS is much more difficult to nice sharp edge on. I mean shave you're arm harm easily sharp. Something about HSS really gums up a set of waterstones (a typical run of the mill water stone). A2 can be slightly difficult to sharpen but really not even close to as tough as HSS. But again, this is on a sharpening set up comprised of your typical run of the mill water stones or oil stones. Sigma Select II waterstones are a different story and will tear through just about any steel you throw at them. But they do go out of flat much quicker than normal stones. If someone is reallly interested in trying out an exotic steel then there really is no other choice out there than Lee Valley's new PM-V11 steel. I have be very impressed with it! |
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| Author: | Trevor Gore [ Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Planing your tonewood to thickness |
AnthonyE wrote: I might agree with you about HSS not being more difficult to sharpen but only because you are set up DMT stones to begin with. Sure. I went "round the houses" years ago trying to get an efficient sharpening system. I tried all the usual suspects, oil stones used with either oil or water, waterstones used with either oil or water, ceramic stones etc. etc. Everything else other than diamonds meant significant stone maintenance of one sort or another which took time and while the edges I was getting were fine the stone maintenance was a killer. I shelled out for two DMTs (blue and green) 10 or so years ago and all the issues disappeared. They sharpen any alloy you can throw at them to a fine edge in just a few strokes, stay flat and will probably outlast me. One of the best tool investments I made. I wish they'd have put a different stagger pattern on the holes though.... |
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