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| Can I (and should I) change from 3/32" saddle slot to 1/8" http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=40006 |
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| Author: | Beth Mayer [ Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Can I (and should I) change from 3/32" saddle slot to 1/8" |
I am literally ready to glue the finished bridge on an OM I'm building for a local musician, TODAY. He just called and said he found the pickup he wants really cheap on Amazon, but it's the 1/8" undersaddle. I made a 3/32" slot. He wants to know if there's any way we can make it work. Here are my questions: I don't really see any issues with installing the completed bridge back into the slotting jig and routing a wider channel, but when I do anything different I seem to get some unintended consequences, so I'm wondering if widening the slot is a reasonable thing to do. If I do widen the slot, I assume I need to retain the exact center of the slot so that the middle of the saddle remains the same as it is right now (which I guess my slotting jig would insure anyway). Any thoughts pro or con, about using a 1/8" saddle slot vs 3/32"? I just weighed the bridge and it weighs 40 gm (I thought I had previously weighed it at 38) so maybe it would even benefit from having the slot widened...might lose a gram or two. I appreciate any comments about this. I'm nervous about doing it, because I don't want to have to start the bridge over if I screw it up somehow). Thanks, Beth |
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| Author: | Casey Cochran [ Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can I (and should I) change from 3/32" saddle slot to 1/ |
Personally, I like the looks of the 3/32" saddle better. Of course, the 1/8" will provide a little more room for compensation. |
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| Author: | ZekeM [ Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can I (and should I) change from 3/32" saddle slot to 1/ |
Todd Stock wrote: Go for it...more room to adjust intonation, etc. my thoughts exactly |
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| Author: | grumpy [ Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can I (and should I) change from 3/32" saddle slot to 1/ |
That wider saddle will weigh more than the wood removed. Bone is heavier than wood. But that won't be much of an issue, as the bridge is already severely overweight. Sorry. It's also bad practice to allow a client to make a design change, even if it is minor. Especially when all they want the change for is to use a cheaper pickup? Is your client paying you for the extra time and work to re-rout the slot? I can assure you that in my shop, the extra cost, if I could be convinced to do the job at all, would completely kill any savings he/she would be seeing from the cheaper, and likely inferior, pickup. |
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| Author: | bobgramann [ Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can I (and should I) change from 3/32" saddle slot to 1/ |
Do it the easy way. If he's willing to pay you to make a new bridge, you can save the one you have for a later build (and make the new one closer to your weight target). I have used ebony 35 to 40 gram bridges with good results when I wanted the mass to dampen the treble a bit, but I usually shoot for a lighter bridge. And, 1/8" does give you more room to adjust intonation. I have a hard time getting it right everywhere with a 3/32" saddle although it's possible. Another tack is to talk the customer into a K&K or McIntyre pickup which won't mess with the saddle slot at all. (Full disclosure: I hate undersaddle pickups). |
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| Author: | Beth Mayer [ Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can I (and should I) change from 3/32" saddle slot to 1/ |
Thanks guys. After all that, the musician called me back saying he got to play a guitar with an LL Baggs Anthem last night and has decided he wants that instead. Apparently the Anthem takes either saddle width, so I'm golden with what I've got. It's actually still a very helpful discussion for me, though because, as I always do when I ask a question, I learned a couple of valuable things. Thanks again! Beth |
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| Author: | Beth Mayer [ Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can I (and should I) change from 3/32" saddle slot to 1/ |
bobgramann wrote: Do it the easy way. If he's willing to pay you to make a new bridge, you can save the one you have for a later build (and make the new one closer to your weight target). I have used ebony 35 to 40 gram bridges with good results when I wanted the mass to dampen the treble a bit, but I usually shoot for a lighter bridge. And, 1/8" does give you more room to adjust intonation. I have a hard time getting it right everywhere with a 3/32" saddle although it's possible. Another tack is to talk the customer into a K&K or McIntyre pickup which won't mess with the saddle slot at all. (Full disclosure: I hate undersaddle pickups). I don't have enough experience to have an opinion, but I know there are arguments against the under saddle pickup. The one I've heard is that it removes the contact between the saddle and the wood of the bridge slot, and may affect tone because of it. Is that your objection to them, Bob? |
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| Author: | Beth Mayer [ Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can I (and should I) change from 3/32" saddle slot to 1/ |
grumpy wrote: That wider saddle will weigh more than the wood removed. Bone is heavier than wood. But that won't be much of an issue, as the bridge is already severely overweight. Sorry. It's also bad practice to allow a client to make a design change, even if it is minor. Especially when all they want the change for is to use a cheaper pickup? Is your client paying you for the extra time and work to re-rout the slot? I can assure you that in my shop, the extra cost, if I could be convinced to do the job at all, would completely kill any savings he/she would be seeing from the cheaper, and likely inferior, pickup. Good points, Grumpy. Now that I've reweighed the bridge (I don't know how I mistakenly thought it's weight was lighter), I think I will take some of the weight off with additional shaping. It has a large enough belly that it looks like an athlete gone to seen, but I liked the shape so I was okay with it being 37 or 38. But weighing it repeatedly today and finding it to be 40 gms, I realize it needs to be trimmed down. As for the "client", I'm a newbie and he's a struggling artist so I'm making it for him as a gift. I'm no pro, but I can certainly see that a change at the last hour would not be a good thing to do if this were a business deal (for either of the parties), and I would definitely charge more to make the change than the savings would give him. |
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| Author: | bobgramann [ Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can I (and should I) change from 3/32" saddle slot to 1/ |
Yes, the undersaddle pickup does weaken the contact between the saddle and the bridge and thus affect the unplugged sound of the guitar (I've always thought that the folks who say they can't hear the difference are making a statement about their ears). And, the saddle has to move freely in the slot instead of being tight--that lets it lean and messes up the intonation as well as affects the sound transfer. And, the plugged in sound is clearly electric--I find the tone of an undersaddle is annoying. I am very proud of the sound of my guitars and hate to hear the adulteration of the tone that comes with the undersaddle pickup. The K&K and the McIntyre Feather still have a bit of that electric sound but it's not quite as bad and they don't seem to affect the unplugged sound. That said, the whole topic rests on opinions. My opinion is that you don't mess with the joint between the saddle and the bridge. |
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| Author: | James Orr [ Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can I (and should I) change from 3/32" saddle slot to 1/ |
Beth Mayer wrote: It's actually still a very helpful discussion for me, though because, as I always do when I ask a question, I learned a couple of valuable things. Thanks again! Beth Likewise! And I'm wondering: 1: What an ideal range for bridge weight is? 2: Why those with aversions to under-saddle pick-ups have said aversions, and what they prefer instead? |
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| Author: | grumpy [ Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can I (and should I) change from 3/32" saddle slot to 1/ |
K&K |
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| Author: | bobgramann [ Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can I (and should I) change from 3/32" saddle slot to 1/ |
The ones that I get back that others have installed often lean. Mine don't, but I don't often install undersaddle pickups. |
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| Author: | grumpy [ Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can I (and should I) change from 3/32" saddle slot to 1/ |
Agreed, overbuilt GLOs do better with UST, but real acoustic guitars that have good or better than average acoustic sound and power do best with a K&K, and I'm assuming that everyone here builds a better than average acoustic.... As for the percussive thing, that's one of the best things about the K&K system! A UST just goes quack-quack, but louder, where the K&K will actually convey the percussive "chop" that the player's doing. Running a K&K through a pre-amp isn't necessary, but it opens up a lot more possibilities. I run mine through an older Baggs "Para DI" box. I've even run my upright bass with a K&K guitar system(the triple mini) and the ParaDI in different venues with excellent results. Basically, the system pretty much faithfully reproduces the instrument's acoustic sound and the player's dynamics. Just louder... |
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| Author: | bobgramann [ Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can I (and should I) change from 3/32" saddle slot to 1/ |
The Lake Wobegon effect: All of our guitars are above average. |
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| Author: | Mark Maquillan [ Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can I (and should I) change from 3/32" saddle slot to 1/ |
K&K system works great, even on my GLOs. |
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| Author: | James Orr [ Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can I (and should I) change from 3/32" saddle slot to 1/ |
Todd Stock wrote: I like the K&K and use it on a fair number of guitars, but but not something I'd use on every guitar. Apprx how many would you say you've used a K&K in, and how many would you say you've chosen others for? |
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| Author: | peterm [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can I (and should I) change from 3/32" saddle slot to 1/ |
Personally 3/32" its a bit too thin looking. I'd go 1/8" or more... |
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| Author: | Eric Reid [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can I (and should I) change from 3/32" saddle slot to 1/ |
[quote= Same fit whether it's a UST or not...even the ones I glue in get the same airtight fit....and for recording, is a real issue on the way the PU handles it. [/quote Airtight fit? So for the first few months, the saddle is an air spring? Do you notice a change in tone when the saddle finally seats? Recording with a USP? Seriously? |
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| Author: | grumpy [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can I (and should I) change from 3/32" saddle slot to 1/ |
Todd, I plugged-in a new, very responsive guitar last night that I just put a K&K triple mini(or whatever it is they call it these days...), and slapped the bridge, body, top, etc... I had to hit it hard enough that I thought I was about to do damage before it started to give me any artifact from the hits. All I can think of is that it's been a long time since you've installed one, or you're not installing them in the correct place(which is on the bridge plate, directly under the saddle position, not on the soundboard..). Personally, anything over 3/32" looks fat and out of place... <g> |
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| Author: | grumpy [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can I (and should I) change from 3/32" saddle slot to 1/ |
grumpy wrote: ...and I'm assuming that everyone here builds a better than average acoustic..... Oh you are TOO kind! lol Filippo Actually, I'm pretty serious! It's not -that- hard to build a better than average guitar. Just stop-in at any music store and start playing the stuff they have on the walls. Not just the ones in the high-end room out back, but the front room guitars, too. I'll bet that most everyone here has built better sounding, more responsive guitars than those. I've only met a handful of you, mostly at the Ann Arbor gathering some years back, and while some guitars were way better than others, I don't recall a complete dud among them. One guy even had a guitar built completely of OSB that sounded decent(considering...). |
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| Author: | crich [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can I (and should I) change from 3/32" saddle slot to 1/ |
I have K&K in all my guitars that I play out live, but I also use a Sunrise in the soundhole. I wire them into a stereo plug, using an 1/8" plug on the Sunrise so I can unplug and remove the Sunrise pickup. I run both pickups in a stereo plug into a Rane AP-13 preamp. It has two channels so I can mix the pickups. This system has given me the most versatility and sound I've found. In quieter settings, church, I'll just use the K&K into an acoustic amp with no preamp between. Clinton |
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| Author: | James Orr [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can I (and should I) change from 3/32" saddle slot to 1/ |
I've been playing in church more lately (after taking a handful of years off), which is why I'm wondering. Mic'ing the guitar isn't the right sound in the context. I used to have a UST and plugged into an Avalon U5, but I no longer have the guitar or U5. Looking to go straight into a cheapo church-owned direct box. |
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| Author: | Pat Hawley [ Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can I (and should I) change from 3/32" saddle slot to 1/ |
With respect to fitting the saddle, it seems to me that the emphasis thus far has been on getting a snug, "airtight" fit. I'd like to just throw in a cautionary note about being too snug. A fellow I know very well made a nice tight saddle fit and at one point, when taking it out of the bridge (which was already glued to the guitar at this point) also pulled out a big chip of ebony from said bridge. Ruined bridge. Now this fellow goes for a snug, but not too snug fit. No leaning, and the saddles wouldn't fall out if the guitar was held upside down, but they do go in and out of the slot without too much pushing/pulling. Pat |
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| Author: | JasonM [ Sat May 04, 2013 12:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can I (and should I) change from 3/32" saddle slot to 1/ |
Has anyone tried the K&K quantum trinity? Triple mini/ condenser mic. combo? thinking of mounting the mic from the side or neckblock to minimize hanging anything extra from the soundboard. any known issues with this? |
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| Author: | Mark Maquillan [ Sat May 04, 2013 2:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can I (and should I) change from 3/32" saddle slot to 1/ |
I have one in the main guitar I play. I don't use the mic very often because the quality of the three sound board transducers is enough. No issues for me. K&K does a great job. |
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