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When do you become a 'Luthier'?
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Author:  Rob Flindall [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:18 am ]
Post subject:  When do you become a 'Luthier'?
A friend and I were having a conversation about my first two scratch builds as they near completion. One is ready for strings and the other I'm just sanding in prep for buffing and final assembly. My friend congratulated me on my three total builds and said that I'm a 'luthier' now. That struck me as odd because I certainly don't consider myself one - I think of myself more as a guy that's creating sawdust while miraculously pulling off building 3 guitars, two of which still need to be proven by putting on some strings and giving them their first strum.

So a question has come to mind. When do you step over that imaginary line in the sand and become a luthier?

In my minds eye, I envision the wizened luthier plying his trade after decades of trial and error in his beautiful workshop, stacked to the rafters with tone woods, jigs and tools. When I think luthier, I think of the masters - of which I am not.
Author:  Josh H [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When do you become a 'Luthier'?
If you go by the dictionary definition than you certainly qualify. When I have thought about this topic it has not been a question of when one becomes a luthier, but when does one become a "master luthier". I have met some people who have claimed that term when referring to themselves, when they really had no right to (based on the quality of their work). My feeling has been that you become a "professional luthier" when you do luthiery as a profession. You are trying to make some portion of your living at it, and customers are willing to pay a fair price for your work. I think you become a "master luthier" when those wizedned luthiers you refer to, start apply that term to you. It is a term I would never feel right claiming myself. I will let other decide when I reach that point.

I referenced this article in a tread not long ago, but I'll do it again because it is so good. It really helped me when I was just starting out. http://www.cumpiano.com/Home/Articles/Articles/pedagog.htm

Josh
Author:  grumpy [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When do you become a 'Luthier'?
When your peers refer to you as a luthier, you've become one. Not before...
Author:  Tony_in_NYC [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When do you become a 'Luthier'?
When you can also fix everything that goes wrong on a completed guitar. Or, buy business cards that say, "Luthier" on them. That works too.
Author:  Dave Stewart [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When do you become a 'Luthier'?
It could be argued that the term can be broadly applied.... if you build, you're a luthier.
I agree with Josh however. I've always felt that, like a carpenter, a "descriptor" is needed .... "novice" "amateur", journeyman", "professional", "master" or whatever, to tell the whole story. If you're a "brain surgeon", once you're there you're there. If you're a luthier, ....ain't necessarily so.
Author:  ZekeM [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When do you become a 'Luthier'?
Ie wondered the same thing. I'll never refer to myself as a luthier and would probably feel uncomfortable if someone else called me that. I'm a machinist with a hobby. In fact I did not join this forum for a while after learning of it because I did not think it was for hobbyist. I thought it was only for "official luthiers".
Author:  grumpy [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When do you become a 'Luthier'?
If you're a "brain surgeon", once you're there you're there.

Q: What do you call the fella who finished dead-last in his medical school graduating class?

A: Doctor.

A "title" doesn't make you the best at anything; it simply means the title holder meets the minimum criteria to hold the title....
Author:  George L [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When do you become a 'Luthier'?
Quote:
"My friend congratulated me on my three total builds and said that I'm a 'luthier' now."

This has happened to me on several occasions. I always attribute this to the speaker having a bit of fun with a rather obscure word in their vocabulary as opposed to them actually bestowing a deserved title. :-) My response is to clarify by saying, "No, I'm not a luthier, just a guitar maker and not a particularly accomplished one at that."

Everyone has their own idea as to when it's okay to go "pro." As I've stated in the past, until I can build a guitar from scratch, take it apart, complete any conceivable repair and put the guitar back together again--as seamlessly as is possible--I will not be trying to take any business away from those who can. Personally, I think that would be just as presumptuous as referring to myself as a luthier.
Author:  Bryan Bear [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When do you become a 'Luthier'?
grumpy wrote:
If you're a "brain surgeon", once you're there you're there.

Q: What do you call the fella who finished dead-last in his medical school graduating class?

A: Doctor.

A "title" doesn't make you the best at anything; it simply means the title holder meets the minimum criteria to hold the title....


But you certainly don't call that person brain surgeon. :)

The word "luthier" is tricky for me. I know I am not a "luthier" in any sense of the loftier interpretation, but it (and its various forms) is just such a convenient word to describe many things related to this craft. I try to avoid it when possible and try to use things like stringed instrument maker or more accurately (though more verbose) I make stringed instruments. Occasionally I will say armature luthier, but that still feels a little wrong.

While I agree with the notion that you are a luthier when your peers call you a luthier. . . that isn't totally helpful either. Many of us operate in a bit of a vacuum and don't have a bunch of "luthiers" checking out our work. So if we reached that level, we may never know it ;). If I surround myself with a group of hobbyist hacks like myself (they are my peers) and we start calling each other "luthiers" then we have cheapened the word for those of you who are really of that caliber.

It would be nice though, to have some sort of real criteria. Even if only out morbid curiosity, I'm sure many of us would like to see just how far we would have to come.

The wonders of the internet have made this craft accessible to a large number of people. A large part of that has been at the hands of the generous contributions of Luthiers. It is neat to see handmade guitars becoming less of a mystery to the general public. It would be nice if the terminology didn't get diluted along the way.
Author:  Tom West [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When do you become a 'Luthier'?
I think Luthier means builder of stringed instruments. Does that mean one has to build other instruments besides guitars? Perhaps yes. I have been a hobby guitar builder since the 70's,have only completed around 40 guitars or so and I would not even dare call myself a luthier. I'm not in this from a business point of view but perhaps those who are starting out as a business do call themselves luthiers out of necessity to procure clients. I have served a four year apprenticeship as a machinist and did pass specific trade tests. I can call myself a qualified machinist. It is a bit sad that the old european guild system of some sort is not in use for the luthier. Perhaps then there would not be such a knowledge gap between one luthier to the next. I don't do repair work as a rule except on my own guitars and must add I think to be a top notch repair person is harder then building.And you have to be good at repair workto wear the badge luthier.Enough of my rant. The answer to the original question. I don't because I don't think I'm qualified.
Tom
Author:  theguitarwhisperer [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When do you become a 'Luthier'?
People put such emphasis and value on titles. I guess know why, I mean the title "President of the United States of America", or "Pope", or "King of Saudi Arabia" carry some privilege, but "Luthier" can be subjective, it seems.

After fifteen years of building and selling guitars, and repairing and restoring instruments, I think calling myself a luthier is not out of line, as it distinguishes me somewhat from the guy up the street who can barely change a set of strings who has never made an instrument on his own, only once under supervision. He still calls himself a luthier, and who am I to say he isn't, although the distinction is lost somewhat then.

Maybe we need to come up with a new term, although "Guitarthier" doesn't quite have the same ring.
Author:  ernie [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When do you become a 'Luthier'?
Luthiery like carpentry is an unregulated biz here in the usa. A local client brought in a good violin that had been mangled by a now out of biz local music store. My point is, anyone can call themselves a (luthier), by and large the buying public is uneducated, and sometimes they rely on the joe schmo butchers at the local music store. There must be a better way , a state or provincial exam to ensure that one truly can be a luthier. and have certain qualifications.?
Author:  grumpy [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When do you become a 'Luthier'?
But you certainly don't call that person brain surgeon. :)


Sigh.....

Okay, let me simplify further.

Q: What do you call the fella who finished dead-last in his brain surgery graduating class?

A: A Brain Surgeon

There, is that better? ;)

Point being, a title, any title, only means the title-holder meets the minimum requirements to hold that title. Sure, a brain surgeon will be highly skilled and qualified, but someone had to be the head of the class, and someone had to fail; everyone ahead of the fella who failed earned the title of brain surgeon. Or put another way, some brain surgeons are better than others...

In our unregulated field, I will maintain that until many of your peers(IE: established and recognized luthiers) openly refer to you as a luthier, you've not reached the minimum requirements.

Sadly, way too many that shouldn't, have had biz cards printed with the terms "luthier" or even "master luthier" on them, which dilutes the meaning of the word.
Author:  Bryan Bear [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When do you become a 'Luthier'?
I took your point, I was just busting your chops :)

You know the difference between god and a brain surgeon is don't you?
Author:  Michael Lloyd [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When do you become a 'Luthier'?
A luthier (pron.: /ˈluːtiər/ LOO-ti-ər)[1] is someone who makes or repairs lutes and other string instruments.

Of course you're a luthier. When you make, repair and continue to make and repair stringed instruments you can by all rights call yourself a luthier.

Let's not make it anymore than it is. You're telling someone or in your case, someone is telling you; you make and repair stringed instruments.

That simple!

As to bring in the comparison of a surgeon to a luthier. Well there's a curve ball. So let’s no go there. :)
Author:  SteveSmith [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When do you become a 'Luthier'?
God doesn't have to practice to get it right.
Author:  Bryan Bear [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When do you become a 'Luthier'?
SteveSmith wrote:
God doesn't have to practice to get it right.


No, God doesn't think he's a brain surgeon laughing6-hehe
Author:  Doug Balzer [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When do you become a 'Luthier'?
Michael Lloyd wrote:
A luthier (pron.: /ˈluːtiər/ LOO-ti-ər)[1] is someone who makes or repairs lutes and other string instruments.

Of course you're a luthier. When you make, repair and continue to make and repair stringed instruments you can by all rights call yourself a luthier.

Let's not make it anymore than it is. You're telling someone or in your case, someone is telling you; you make and repair stringed instruments.

That simple!

As to bring in the comparison of a surgeon to a luthier. Well there's a curve ball. So let’s no go there. :)


I kind of agree with you Michael. My wife is a gardener but not a professional gardener. She works in our garden passionately, regularly and skillfully. My friend is a photographer but not a professional photographer. I don't consider myself a luthier as I am just starting into this but I think there is a difference in people referring to you as a luthier as "one who makes string instruments" and placing that label next to your name on a website, on a guitar label, etc.. One usage of the term is informal and is used as a descriptor of a person involved in the said activity. The other usage of the term is formal, is a title and creates an impression of a high standard achieved. I have a friend who plays the violin. He is a violinist for that is the activity he engages in. My brother is also a violinist in a professional symphony. It is part of his resume. His formal title. However both are violinists in one sense. Only one would use it as a formal title. So for those of you who have built a few instruments I already refer to you as luthiers because it is the activity you are engaged in. However, if you were to attach the word to your name as some sort of title I might really wonder. Is that fair?
Author:  William Shafer III [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When do you become a 'Luthier'?
I agree with a lot of what was said above. At best I would consider myself a amatuer carpender and that is pushing it. I joined this forum to pick the brains of the masters and the hobbyists so that I can do the best that I can. I don't perticularly care about title where hobbies are conserned. 5 years ago I started as a novice home brewer, and unlike instruments I've done over 100 batches of mead and beer since. Would I call myself a brewmaster? No. But everyone who drinks my beer cannot get enough and my family and friends look forward to my bottles of mead each year around the holidays. IMHO I only think the titles matter if your doing it for a living. If your a hobbyist your a hobbyist. :|
Author:  Alan Carruth [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When do you become a 'Luthier'?
I take a sort of old-fashioned slant on this stuff: a 'luthier' makes a number of different kinds of stringed instruments, so if all you've made is guitars, you're a 'guitar maker', but not really a 'luthier'. You become a 'master' when the other masters call you one. That, at least, was the approach taken in the old days when guilds ruled the roost. Here in the USA this is totally unregulated, and anybody can hang out a shingle that says 'luthier', but I like to think that words can have some meaning. FWIW, since I make a bunch of different sorts of stringed instruments aside from the guitar family, I do call myself a 'luthier'. That doesn't mean that I can completely re-build anything that comes through the door: I'm a maker, not a restorer.

One of the objectives of the Association of Stringed Instrument Artisans was originally to come up with a rating system that would certify people as luthiers of whatever sort. The problem seems to have been in getting the members to agree on standards. If all I make is acoustic guitars, do I really need to know how to wire a Strat? Quick: how many brackets on a 'Whyte Lady'? I think they tried about three times, and gave up. It's too bad in a way; if you could say you had rating from a national professional organization that would give you more credibility, and might put some pressure on the local know-nothing, and that was the point. OTOH, I think any such effort is doomed here.
Author:  ballbanjos [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When do you become a 'Luthier'?
Alan Carruth wrote:
Quick: how many brackets on a 'Whyte Lady'? I think they tried about three times, and gave up. It's too bad in a way; if you could say you had rating from a national professional organization that would give you more credibility, and might put some pressure on the local know-nothing, and that was the point. OTOH, I think any such effort is doomed here.


At last a question that a banjo maker can answer--typically 28 brackets on a 10 15/16" pot and 30 on the 11 13/16", but there are exceptions...

But seriously I've always avoided the title "Luthier" and stuck with "stringed instrument maker." Same meaning but doesn't require explaining what a luthier is. Even we don't seem to know exactly what it is :lol:

Dave
Author:  Tony_in_NYC [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When do you become a 'Luthier'?
I build guitars in my garage for fun. I routinely say "I build guitars in my garage for fun". My neighbor does not build guitars in his garage for fun, but he does play them for a living. (Guitars, not garages. You can't tune a garage.) He always calls me a luthier. When he does that, I say, "I just build guitars in my garage for fun." It's not all fun though. I do accept money for those guitars I built in my garage. What the heck am I?
Author:  Chris Pile [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When do you become a 'Luthier'?
At least we aren't saddled with simply being "a woodworker".
A guy once asked me in my shop (while surrounded by guitars), if I would build his wife some new kitchen cabinets.
When I told him "No. And I don't have a table saw", he got the most peculiar look on his face....
Author:  ZekeM [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When do you become a 'Luthier'?
Tony_in_NYC wrote:
I build guitars in my garage for fun. I routinely say "I build guitars in my garage for fun". My neighbor does not build guitars in his garage for fun, but he does play them for a living. (Guitars, not garages. You can't tune a garage.) He always calls me a luthier. When he does that, I say, "I just build guitars in my garage for fun." It's not all fun though. I do accept money for those guitars I built in my garage. What the heck am I?

you my friend are a hobbyist that accepts handouts ;)
In all seriousness I've wonders the same thing (what are you) and I've decided you are a lunatic. :)
Author:  William Shafer III [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When do you become a 'Luthier'?
"I do accept money for those guitars I built in my garage. What the heck am I?"

You're a guy who build guitars in his garage for fun AND money. :P
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