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Any Interest in an "ultimate binding jig"?
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Author:  Chris Ensor [ Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:23 am ]
Post subject:  Any Interest in an "ultimate binding jig"?
I have a machinist friend of mine making me an amazing binding jig. Lance has given me permission to sell up to 4 more of them here if there is interest. The jig is a combonation of the Mark Kett jig being sold by Canadian Luthier Supply and the binding cutter made by the luthier tool company. Here is the mock-up of the jig:

Attachment:
router jig.jpg


The parts are all aluminum. The jig will come with the base, 29 guides ranging from a flush cut to .280" in steps of .010", a centering pin, a 1" bit, and a ridgid laminate trimmer. That means it is literally everything you need.

To use the jig, simply attach the router using the centering pin. Check the router's alignment with the flush cut bit. If it needs to be adjusted, loosen the guide holder's lock screws and adjust its placement with the long adjustment screw. Once it is zeroed, lock the guide holder back in place. You can now cut binding/purfling channels up to .280. .280 is my normal depth for radial purfling. But if you want to cut even deeper, use the 1 inch flush cut guide, loosen the guide holder's lock screws, and adjust the holder back with the long adjustment screw to the desired depth. Rezero the guide holder when done.

The Mark Kett Jig sells for $375. The Luther Tool binding jig sells for $205. Neither one of these jigs comes with a router. So the asking price for the jig my machinist friend is making me will be $600.

So what do you think? Is anybody interested in the jig? Please make comments here. Again, Lance has given permission for up to 4 of these to be made and sold on the classifieds. If there is no interest, I will have the only one! Muwahaha. :mrgreen:
Author:  James Orr [ Sun Apr 28, 2013 5:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any Interest in an "ultimate binding jig"?
Unfortunately I'm not in a place to go for one of these right now, but it seems like an excellent product. If I were in the market, I'd be more inclined to use the trimmer of my choice (like one I already own), but I understand that the base is likely drilled to spec for the Ridgid. I dig the compactness of this concept.
Author:  Chris Ensor [ Sun Apr 28, 2013 5:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any Interest in an "ultimate binding jig"?
Thanks James. For others who have been looking, please comment regardless of your interest in buying. Does the price seem fair? Would others also think that the included laminate trimmer is unnecessary? Etc...

We have talked about not including the trimmer. I guess who ever ordered it would have I mail us a base so it would be drilled for their trimmer of choice.
Author:  Alex Kleon [ Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any Interest in an "ultimate binding jig"?
The price may be a little high, but the cost of producing these is going to be high as well, isn't it. A good binding job on a guitar has a definite value as well, so maybe the price is right in the ball park. Anybody building lots of guitars could get a good return on the cost of one of these jigs. A price without the laminate trimmer might make it a little more appealing.

Alex
Author:  ZekeM [ Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any Interest in an "ultimate binding jig"?
I thought the same as James regarding the trimmer. You wouldn't have to necessarily drill the holes unless the purchaser were incapable. But that would be an easy modification that just about anyone could make. Most people already own a trimmer and not having to spend more to purchase one with the jig could help you to sell more. The price seems a little high for me unless there is more to the jig than what your picture shows. Then again if only making four I can see where the set up cost could be driving the price up. Do you have any other pictures of the concept? I'm trying to figure out how it is supposed to work and can't seem to grasp it from your description.
Author:  James Orr [ Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any Interest in an "ultimate binding jig"?
Is there any risk of getting an uneven or un-square channel from the way you slide the guitar into the cutter?
Author:  James Orr [ Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any Interest in an
ZekeM wrote:
Do you have any other pictures of the concept? I'm trying to figure out how it is supposed to work and can't seem to grasp it from your description.


I think the dumbells ride along the side of the guitar to set the depth of cut. And I believe the adjustment mechanism to the right fines tunes the depth of cut so that flush means flush. For example, if your router bit isn't perfectly centered, I believe you can use that to fine tune it until, in effect, it is.

It also sounds like this is using a 1" rabbiting bit?
Author:  ZekeM [ Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any Interest in an "ultimate binding jig"?
James Orr wrote:
ZekeM wrote:
Do you have any other pictures of the concept? I'm trying to figure out how it is supposed to work and can't seem to grasp it from your description.


I think the dumbells ride along the side of the guitar to set the depth of cut. And I believe the adjustment mechanism to the right fines tunes the depth of cut so that flush means flush. For example, if your router bit isn't perfectly centered, I believe you can use that to fine tune it until, in effect, it is.

It also sounds like this is using a 1" rabbiting bit?

it seems like there is quite a bit of adjustment there just to fine tune a flush cut. And if you have that much adjustment I don't see why you would need interchangeable guides.

Also does this go in some sort of arm to hold it vertical? Or do you just do it by hand?
Author:  James Orr [ Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any Interest in an "ultimate binding jig"?
I agree. That's *if* I understand it though.

In Canadian Luthier Supply's demo video, the jig's in a vise.
Author:  James Orr [ Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any Interest in an "ultimate binding jig"?
Hey Chris, if this can be done for $450 sans router, I think I'm interested. I'd want to give it some more thought.

I thought of another question. Will the dumbbells be labeled somehow?
Author:  ZekeM [ Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any Interest in an "ultimate binding jig"?
Ok I've looked up the Canadian luthier supply video and have a much better understanding. I no longer need a better explanation, Chris.

I do see theirs is in a vice and it seems you may need more stock on the back to do that but maybe that's where the luthiers tool jig comes in since it's held by hand? Also what threads will be on the adjustment screw? The finer the better IMO. 40 threads per inch woul be ideal. That way you get .025" per revolution. You could even trak down some micrometer thimbles and have super precise adjustments. Anyhow looks like a pretty decent little jig.
Author:  Chris Ensor [ Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any Interest in an "ultimate binding jig"?
Wow, now there are some good replies. Thanks guys for all the input and questions. I will go over it a bit more thoroughly this time so that everyone understands (hopefully). First, here is a photo with parts labeled so it is more clear:

Attachment:
router jig 2.jpg


The guides get changed out for the size you want to cut. The jig comes zeroed with the assumption that you can zero your own laminate trimmer. There are 29 guides- allowing you to cut up to .280. That's just a recap mostly.

James Orr wrote:
Is there any risk of getting an uneven or un-square channel from the way you slide the guitar into the cutter?


The beauty of this jig is that it cuts the channel parallel to the sides rather than square to any surface. That means that if you have any imperfection from bending by hand, this jig will follow the "out of squareness" and still give you evenly cut channels. The only danger is in user error. You must make sure the guitar stays fully in contact with both large circles of the guide at all times. If the guitar rocks off the guide, you will be cutting deeper than is intended.

James Orr wrote:
It also sounds like this is using a 1" rabbiting bit?


The bit is indeed a 1" rabbeting bit.

ZekeM wrote:
it seems like there is quite a bit of adjustment there just to fine tune a flush cut. And if you have that much adjustment I don't see why you would need interchangeable guides.

Also does this go in some sort of arm to hold it vertical? Or do you just do it by hand?


The reason for the interchangeable guides as well as the adjustment screw for deeper cuts is that it is more consistent to cut with a guide that allows for a full depth cut all the way around the cutter. It is pretty rare to need to cut deeper than .280" (at least in my own work), so this can be accomplished by moving the guide holder back. When you do this, you must make sure you cut to the full depth all the way around. See explanation:

Attachment:
Untitled-1.jpg


The jig will be held in a vise, not hand held. The drawing is simply a guide for my machinist friend, he will add more material as needed to make sure it works.

James Orr wrote:
Hey Chris, if this can be done for $450 sans router, I think I'm interested. I'd want to give it some more thought.

I thought of another question. Will the dumbbells be labeled somehow?


The only system I can think of to label the guides is with some sort of sticker on the end. If you have any suggestions, that would be great. But yes, I plan on labeling mine as well.

ZekeM wrote:
Also what threads will be on the adjustment screw?


We are using 1/4 20.

Filippo Morelli wrote:
The Ridgid laminate trimmer sells for $100 at Home Depot. Does that make your aluminum rig $500 compared to the $375 Kett and $205 Luthier Tool jigs? If not a bit of clarification might help, unless I misread ...


Yes I meant laminate trimmer. That's more to type, so I got lazy and just typed router. laughing6-hehe This jig combines both of the previously mentioned jigs but with more guides than the Kett jig. So $375 + $205 would be $580 plus a ridgid laminate trimmer would be $680. I realize there is some overlap, but with additional guides, the all aluminum construction, and the router (yes I am going back to router- call me lazy), we had the figure of $600 in our heads. But that is why I am asking for input here.

It seems that there is more interest in the jig without a router, if that is the case, we will consider it.

I use "we" a lot in all this. I want to clarify. I will be profitting in NO way from the sale of these units. I designed them and am his outlet to reach my fellow luthiers, but he is the one doing all the work and will be the one "making" the money.
Author:  ZekeM [ Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any Interest in an
Chris,
I'm assuming the machinist friend of yours will be using CNC equipment to cut the parts. If so it would be very simple to engrave the guides with the size. This could be done on either the end, or mill a small flat and engrave the size on the shaft when drilling and tapping the hole for the attachment screw. Another option is to simply stamp the size onto the guide. I think that it would increase the usability to have the sizes permanently stamped or engraved onto the guides.
Author:  James Orr [ Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any Interest in an "ultimate binding jig"?
Quote:
Is there any risk of getting an uneven or un-square channel from the way you slide the guitar into the cutter?


The only danger is in user error. You must make sure the guitar stays fully in contact with both large circles of the guide at all times. If the guitar rocks off the guide, you will be cutting deeper than is intended.[/quote]

How realistic is that? How long are the dumbbells? If they were the same width along the length, this would be very adaptable to solid bodies and other narrower instruments (ukes, mandolins, etc). I'm not sure if it would be less work or more to make them the same width across the span, but it seems like less. One less step to remove material.

Quote:
Will the dumbbells be labeled somehow?

The only system I can think of to label the guides is with some sort of sticker on the end. If you have any suggestions, that would be great. But yes, I plan on labeling mine as well.


It would be nice if they were engraved. This looks like it's designed to be a premium tool, and that would be a reasonable touch.

Thanks for the responses and sitting on the hot seat.
Author:  klooker [ Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any Interest in an "ultimate binding jig"?
The $600 price includes an approx $100 laminate trimmer & 29 guides?

That many guides seems like overkill. I imagine that you will typically use well less than half?

I'm guessing each guide is at least $10 so that accounts for almost half the total cost?

I like the design, but I'm frugal, ok I'm cheap, or tight...

I also realize that you're probably trying to simplify the production run for your machinist.

I know what I'd want: guides a la carte & I supply the trimmer, assuming this would result in substantial cost savings.



Kevin Looker
Author:  James Orr [ Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Any Interest in an "ultimate binding jig"?
Filippo Morelli wrote:
James,
This full side referencing approach is pretty common and folks that do it seem pretty happy (to your question of error or how practical it is to follow the sides without error). I think the bigger issues is getting one's sides perfect ... but again, those that use full side referencing should be able to speak to this in detail.

Filippo


Thanks, Filippo. When I was tooling up, I spent a lot of time thinking about the Luthier Tool jig. One of the big concerns was taking out a divot when placing it against the side. I'm not too worried about wavy sides.

I have one of Don's jigs now, and don't have any quams with the results. But I do like the compactness of a setup like this.
Author:  Chris Ensor [ Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Any Interest in an "ultimate binding jig"?
I talked to my firend this morning. He said he could stamp the sizes into the guides.

James Orr wrote:
How long are the dumbbells?


The guides are 2 3/4" from end to end with 2" in the middle.

klooker wrote:
I know what I'd want: guides a la carte & I supply the trimmer, assuming this would result in substantial cost savings.


If you are actually interested, this could be arranged.
Author:  klooker [ Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Any Interest in an "ultimate binding jig"?
Chris Ensor wrote:


klooker wrote:
I know what I'd want: guides a la carte & I supply the trimmer, assuming this would result in substantial cost savings.


If you are actually interested, this could be arranged.


Any rough idea of how much for the parts a la carte?

Kevin Looker
Author:  Burton LeGeyt [ Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Any Interest in an "ultimate binding jig"?
I made myself a setup very much like this and have been thinking about re-making it as the first one was ROUGH looking.

A few thoughts:

-While the dumbell approach is more foolproof for a perfect binding channel in practice I have no complaints with the other method where the round part that bears against the side simply moves forward and back.

-With that method the part that rides against the side is full height and can easily ride over something like a soundport that a dumbbell could fall into-

-$600 is absolutely a fair price for everything included, especially with all those spacers!.

-There should be an included way to center the laminate trimmer bit. I was planning on having set screws in the corners to level the router base with a dumbell that accepted a ground bar to lock it all in.

-On the one I made the entire lower part could slide in and out and there was a stop on the top that allowed you to simply put a piece of your binding on the rear part and that would create the correct offset, no dumbells or anything else needed. I have found this to work very well.

-I use a 1/4 downcut bit in mine and the bit wears out fairly quickly but there is really never any tear out. Having said that:

-I made 2 of these, one hand held and one larger bench mounted one that takes a full size router. I hog out most of the channel with the big one (with a 1" bit and 1/2" shank) and leave .020 or so to clean up with the handheld. This works very well for me, I would not be happy about hogging out the whole channel with the lam trimmer although you could certainly do it. I cut the purfling channels with the lam trimmer only.

Hope that helps-
Author:  Chris Ensor [ Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Any Interest in an "ultimate binding jig"?
Burton,
Thanks for you comments. The guides were designed to not fall into a soundport- meaning I measured where my typical oval falls. The guides should miss it completely.

Burton LeGeyt wrote:
There should be an included way to center the laminate trimmer bit. I was planning on having set screws in the corners to level the router base with a dumbell that accepted a ground bar to lock it all in.


The jig comes with a centering pin.

klooker wrote:
Any rough idea of how much for the parts a la carte?


My friend said he will get back to me on this.
Author:  sdsollod [ Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Any Interest in an "ultimate binding jig"?
I built a Fleishman/Williams-style binding router jig like Kathy Matsushita did. I use the Stew- Mac router bit and guides. It works great and was relatively inexpensive…

http://home.comcast.net/~kathymatsushit ... trjig.html

No worries with keeping the router verticle. I bought the guides in sizes I typically use. I used to use a hand held guide but I'm enjoying using this jig.
Author:  James Orr [ Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Any Interest in an "ultimate binding jig"?
Chris, any chance you could design the guides to be full width across (as opposed to dumbbells)? The result would make the jig useable for solid bodies, ukes, and mandos. If you did that, and would sell without the trimmer for $450, you can count me in.
Author:  ZekeM [ Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Any Interest in an "ultimate binding jig"?
James Orr wrote:
Chris, any chance you could design the guides to be full width across (as opposed to dumbbells)? The result would make the jig useable for solid bodies, ukes, and mandos. If you did that, and would sell without the trimmer for $450, you can count me in.

the only issue with that modification is that it would call for a redesign of how the guides mount to the machine. You would either require substantial adjustment for centering each guide, and you would have to deal with centering every time you put a new guide on. Or, you could make the solid guides with a standard slot milled into the back of each guide that would fit onto a "key" where it mounts to the machine. The second of these would be the most desirable IMO. But it would require modifying the current design.
Author:  Chris Ensor [ Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Any Interest in an "ultimate binding jig"?
James,
Zee hit the nail on the head. I don't see a redisgn happening. Would you still be interested with the dumbbell design?
Author:  James Orr [ Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Any Interest in an "ultimate binding jig"?
Chris Ensor wrote:
James,
Zee hit the nail on the head. I don't see a redisgn happening. Would you still be interested with the dumbbell design?


Unfortunately I wouldn't be. It's use would be limited to acoustic and classical guitars, which means I would be, too. I can definitely appreciate the effort a redesign would take (and how much work you've already put into developing this tool and working out all the wrinkles).
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