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| Flatsawn spanish cedar http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=40389 |
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| Author: | John A [ Fri May 17, 2013 9:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Flatsawn spanish cedar |
Classical - we don't use flat sawn necks - I use Spanish cedar but not flat, rift sawn at 75 degree at worst - what are you referring to ? |
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| Author: | Clinchriver [ Fri May 17, 2013 10:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Flatsawn spanish cedar |
Filippo Morelli wrote: So is there a reason for building with flatsawn necks? Specifically spanish cedar? I'm thinking classical / flamenco ... but electric guitar guys might have opinions too as some of my electric friends swear that flatsawn maple necks sound better on electrics than vertical grain ... (?) Filippo I have necks on electric guitars both quarter and flat sawn. Grain orientation in the neck affecting the tone??? I prefer maple necks on my strats and tele and really they can be all over the place., The Eric Johnson strats are quarter sawn vertical grain. I've got a few curly maple turning billets that I can carve vertical grain necks I was thinking more about stability than tone. Local guy makes incredible exotic hardwood flooring, has a quarter sawn flamed Spanish Cedar board 10/4 X 10" X 12' long I'd love to find out:) |
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| Author: | John A [ Fri May 17, 2013 10:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Flatsawn spanish cedar |
Quote: quarter sawn flamed Spanish Cedar board 10/4 X 10" X 12' long I'd love to find out:) with a board like that - you can just flip it on it's side and you suddenly have quarter sawn |
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| Author: | mqbernardo [ Fri May 17, 2013 1:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Flatsawn spanish cedar |
i don´t use it either, not even my cheapo Manuel Rodriguez has it - maybe you could try delcamp for a larger survey. |
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| Author: | Michael.N. [ Fri May 17, 2013 2:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Flatsawn spanish cedar |
Years ago I remember reading that the difference in strength/stiffness between flat and quarter sawn wood was minimal. I can't remember who did the test but I'm pretty sure it was someone connected to Lute construction. It was many years ago though and my memory fails me. Anyway, a quick google of quarter sawn flat sawn produced this: http://liutaiomottola.com/myth/quartersawn.htm Make of it what you will. BTW I thought that rift sawn was the worst of them all. . . but what do I know. Oh just remembered another fact. Violins and Cellos use flat sawn Necks. |
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| Author: | mqbernardo [ Fri May 17, 2013 2:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Flatsawn spanish cedar |
yeah, but they use maple - iirc there was a discussion around here some time ago and the consensus was that FS maple was as stable as QS. IIRC. with ebony, for instance, that clearly is not the case. |
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| Author: | Jim Kirby [ Fri May 17, 2013 6:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Flatsawn spanish cedar |
Good question Filippo - I have no idea what the answer is. I usually get my cedro neck blanks from Hibdon and the worry factor has already been taken care of - I've never had a chance to test one vs. the other as they are all pretty close to QS. I've started using a carbon fiber rod in the neck as I hate the guesswork during setup of how much additional bow the neck is going to get before it settles in. Is it none? Is it an extra 1/2 mm at the 12th fret? I'd rather set it and forget it. Perhaps that solves the problem? |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Sat May 18, 2013 7:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Flatsawn spanish cedar |
With Spanish cedar I would worry less about the grain orientation and more about the actual stiffness of the piece of wood. I've had some quartersawn cedro that was down right rubbery compared to others that rivaled mahogany for stiffness. I think the main concern of flatsawn vs. quartersawn is mostly about the differential expansion from humidity. In a 2 1/2 in. wide piece of wood this is not a big deal. |
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| Author: | John Arnold [ Sat May 18, 2013 11:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Flatsawn spanish cedar |
I know that flatsawn spruce is stiffer than quartered, but I doubt that there is much difference in SC. I have used flat sawn mahogany necks, with no problems. If you want a reason to do it, think of the cleavage plane. The weakest plane is perpendicular to the growth rings, so cracked heels and headstocks of one-piece necks are more likely when the wood is quartered. Most classical guitars have a grafted headstock and heel, so this may be a moot point in your case. |
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| Author: | Mike Collins [ Sun May 19, 2013 3:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Flatsawn spanish cedar |
Many famous Spanish makers used flat sawn Sp.Cedar for necks. Maybe that's all they could get but they stood the test of time. It's very stable-it's in the Mahogany family. And as Clay said each piece should be evaluated for it's qualities. Mike |
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| Author: | Carey [ Sun May 19, 2013 7:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Flatsawn spanish cedar |
Segovia's 1912 Manuel Ramirez/ Santos Hernandez has a flat-sawn neck. |
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| Author: | bftobin [ Mon May 20, 2013 8:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Flatsawn spanish cedar |
The first I remember hearing about this was in the Lewis Luthiers Supply catalog back in the early seventies. When Bill Lewis was hired to help reorganize a small guitar factory in Spain, he noticed the necks were being made with mohog and spanish cedar, without any regard to grain orientation. When he asked the 'Master' about this, he was told that it made no difference, and Spanish luthiers had been doing this for many,many years. The only consideration was an extra bit of thickness for the cedar. Brent |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Tue May 21, 2013 7:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Flatsawn spanish cedar |
A flat sawn mahogany neck makes a nice ribbon texture along the fret board edge. But is that why anyone would do it? I don't know. I think your electric guitar friends are influenced by marketing, no way anyone would be able to tell the difference in a flat vs quarter sawn neck, especially through magnetic pickups and an amplifier. |
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| Author: | douglas ingram [ Tue May 21, 2013 5:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Flatsawn spanish cedar |
Interesting. I was just in a wood store this morning and looking at the Spanish Cedar offerings and all of it was flat sawn. I was wondering whether to buy any or not. I choose not as I didn't have any immediate need and the money that I would have spent was more useful right now. |
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| Author: | rtpipkin [ Wed May 22, 2013 9:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Flatsawn spanish cedar |
I bought some furniture grade flat sawn Spanish cedar, nasty runout and pockets of resins that should have compromised the integrity of the three necks I made from it. But, I've observed no warping, splitting, twisting or any undesirable anomalies. Two of the necks are installed in 3/4 size steel string guitars, two years, one has been out in my garage for the same amount of time. I'm fine with the structural integrity of flat sawn cedar. And the price and availability is great. But, it seems to me the luthier suppliers, who focus on quarter sawn also take a little better care of the blanks. I bought the wood from a local lumber supplier and the planks were a little warped. I was able to use them since the necks I made were fairly short anyway. The only other observation I made was that the runout made carving more difficult around the headstock and heal. I expect that, given the choice and purchasing in quantity, I'd take the flat sawn neck stock. |
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