Official Luthiers Forum!
http://luthiersforum.com/forum/

You be the luthier
http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=40459		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  James Orr [ Thu May 23, 2013 10:46 pm ]
Post subject:  You be the luthier
Claudia Client calls or emails you and says she wants a guitar. Her language isn't broken, so at least that part of the SPAM test gets passed. Nigerian princes never get mentioned. This could, in fact, be real. She doesn't even ask if you'll take partial deposits. Partial being part of what your deposit usually is.

Claudia says she plays once a month or so in church, for a small group of about 10-15, and plays mostly instrumentals at home. Standard tuning for the sing-a-longs, DADGAD at home, and it would be really cool to tune it down to CGCFGC because she really loves the low stuff. At the same time, she's noticed longer scale-lengths can be hard to play, and make the treble a little less smooth than she'd like.

She wants decent fundamental for the instrumentals, but lots of overtones, too. And not so much fundamental that the guitar really stands out in the sing-a-longs. Claudia wants it to blend in and doesn't know if the way her other guitar can be over-bearing during that time is an issue with her as the player, or just the fact that she (thinks she) has a super-fundamental guitar.

Sometimes rosewood seems sterile to her, but she's only played big box guitars up to this point, made by some of the big name brands. Maybe it's the wood, but maybe it's just the production-oriented way they're made?

Alternatively, sometimes mahogany leaves her wanting more out of that low end she craves.

She usually plays with a nice thin .60mm dunlop pick at church, but usually with her fingers at home.

While she hasn't done it yet, she's thinking about asking the music director if she can play the offeratory some time. But only thinking . . . because she's shy, and even the small group makes her nervous.

When you ask Claudia how tall she is, she gets a little shifty and lets you know her husband practices martial arts twice a week, thank you very much. Just when you're about to lose her, you figure out how to explain that you just want the guitar to be comfortable. She's 5'8" and doesn't mind a stretch---she's a devoted yogi.

Given that information, what would you propose?
Author:  DennisK [ Fri May 24, 2013 12:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: You be the luthier
Hmm, an interesting set of requirements... I'll say cedar/rosewood GA, slight Manzer wedge, fan fret 26 to 25.5" scale, but capo the first fret most of the time so it's more like 24.5 to 24 which should be enough for DADGAD with mediums... but with that extra length for C tuning when desired.

Alternatively if she wants to give up the C tuning, make that 24.75", with 12 fret neck and cutaway. That's pretty good for DADGAD or standard with mediums. You could perhaps get away with as low as 25" for DADGAD with lights, which is 19.85lbs of tension on the low string. It'll be pretty quiet, but also very comfortable, and fine for playing at home. Then up to standard tension for playing out would give plenty of volume.

The woods are really more up to the builder though. I haven't built with cedar myself yet, so I'm sort of guessing on that. You could also do redwood and Honduran rosewood, which is my favorite combo. Insanely lively, especially with thin sides which I think tends to trade a bit of power for a bit more complexity, allowing the whole instrument to vibrate. Also feels cool, and more comfortable with less weight, at least if you reduce the weight on the neck end to balance.
Author:  Jeff Highland [ Fri May 24, 2013 4:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: You be the luthier
I'd be saying "keep your existing guitar for standard tuning"
That's too much of a tuning change for one guitar without string gauge change and truss rod adjustment
Author:  Tony_in_NYC [ Fri May 24, 2013 8:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: You be the luthier
Was this all through email, or was there a phone conversation? I would want to talk on the phone a bit. I'm not even worried about the guitar at this point. Howard Klepper got taken for two guitars by a guy like this. Detailed emails, lots of info given, a request for a second guitar for the man's son, bank checks were mailed, then the guitar was shipped and the "bank check" bounced. I can't recall the resolution, but if you are building a new guitar for this person, I would not be comfortable without speaking to them, regardless of the scale length, or wood combo chosen. Just my two cents.
Author:  Alain Moisan [ Fri May 24, 2013 8:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: You be the luthier
For myself, I wouldn't feel comfortable building her a guitar without first having her try some of my demos, and then start from there defining the specs. This is how I always work unless it is physically impossible for the customer to come by the shop. Everything she explains about her expectations ("longer scale-lengths can be hard to play, and make the treble a little less smooth than she'd like", "decent fundamental for the instrumentals, but lots of overtones, too. And not so much fundamental that the guitar really stands out in the sing-a-longs", "rosewood seems sterile to her", "mahogany leaves her wanting more out of that low end she craves") is anything but clear. Different persons could say the same yet hear different things.

Can you get to have her try some of your guitars?
Author:  James Ringelspaugh [ Fri May 24, 2013 10:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: You be the luthier
That's a tough one... good fundamental and lots of overtones seem at odds with each other. CGCFGC and standard tuning are probably too far apart to sound and play well on the same strings and scale, and she wants the scale to be on the short side or else the bridge needs to move out of its sweet spot. I think terms like 'sterile' and 'overbearing' need to be resolved into more meaningful descriptors as well because I wouldn't know exactly what she means by them.

My gut says a 13 fret 000 size with a 26.25" scale and medium strings and scalloped Martin-style X bracing.
Author:  James Ringelspaugh [ Fri May 24, 2013 10:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: You be the luthier
A quick calculation says that at standard tuning with tension of 177 lbs, tuning down to CGCFGC gives a tension of 127 lbs. That's a biiiig difference.
Author:  Don Williams [ Fri May 24, 2013 11:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: You be the luthier
You should build her a Prairie State, with the heaviest Cocobolo you can get, and use either a Euro Spruce top or cedar. The bigger and heavier the better.

Seriously....not at all serious.
Author:  Greg B [ Fri May 24, 2013 11:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: You be the luthier
My 2 cents: Medium Ditson shape, WRC/EIR,25.5" scale, and use falcate bracing or something akin to it. I built a guitar like this about 12 years ago, and it can tune as low as C and sound good, though I normally keep it at standard. As a practical matter you should tell her it isn't really possible to make a guitar that sounds great at both standard and C tuning.

Quote:
Sometimes rosewood seems sterile to her, but she's only played big box guitars up to this point, made by some of the big name brands. Maybe it's the wood, but maybe it's just the production-oriented way they're made?


She's right, it's the latter.
Author:  TimAllen [ Fri May 24, 2013 12:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: You be the luthier
I thought at first this was a humorous post about how unreasonable some clients can be. The client here seems to want certain qualities without the defects that come with those qualities. It's like someone saying "I want a small car that's easy to park, but sometimes I carry large loads of cargo, and I need it to have great acceleration and high speed, but it has to have excellent mileage, and it needs a smooth ride but a stiff suspension because I'm thinking of competing in an off-road race" and so on.

The suggestions in the posts above are excellent approaches to optimize the stated requirements, but I'd be wary of a client who seems unreasonable. And, beyond that, there's something about it that strikes a odd note. I think this may be what Tony is picking up on.
Author:  James Orr [ Fri May 24, 2013 12:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: You be the luthier
Nice responses, guys.

Tony_in_NYC wrote:
Was this all through email, or was there a phone conversation? I would want to talk on the phone a bit. I'm not even worried about the guitar at this point. Howard Klepper got taken for two guitars by a guy like this.


This one's totally hypothetical. Imagine everything's legit and go for it.

I was thinking something along the lines of Dennis and Todd.

- An auditorium type guitar with a 16" lower bout
- Redwood top
- Back and sides in the medium density range, maybe koa or similar. Haven't heard an anigre guitar, but would love to.
- Multi-scale, 25" on the treble to whatever will hold that low C. I wonder if we have to get all the way to 26"?
- Laminated neck for stiffness
Author:  Chris Ensor [ Fri May 24, 2013 1:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: You be the luthier
While the description is thoroughly cloudy, I would suggest a mid size body (15" - 16"). A multiscale would definitely help with the drop tunings. As far as the tonal signature my favorites so far have been EIR/Lutz and Walnut/Englemann. Both had a very complex sound. The walnut/englemann is a little bit less crisp than the eir/lutz, but both have great range. If she really wants as much controll over the tone as the description eludes to (you know, the everything in one package client), I would suggest a pickup with a tone control. That would solve all the issues. laughing6-hehe
Author:  AlBDarned [ Fri May 24, 2013 2:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: You be the luthier
Attachment:
trps.jpg
Author:  phil [ Fri May 24, 2013 4:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: You be the luthier
I've got to say that I'm with Tony. This whole scenario, including the part about the ninja husband, sounds shady.

In another recent thread I think it was Fillipio who pointed out that not everyone who wants to be our customer should be your customer. It's up to you to decide who you want to form this kind of relationship with. And this one feels like its starting with a red flag.

IMHO, of course.

Phil
Author:  James Orr [ Fri May 24, 2013 5:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: You be the luthier
phil wrote:
I've got to say that I'm with Tony. This whole scenario, including the part about the ninja husband, sounds shady.

In another recent thread I think it was Fillipio who pointed out that not everyone who wants to be our customer should be your customer. It's up to you to decide who you want to form this kind of relationship with. And this one feels like its starting with a red flag.

IMHO, of course.

Phil


LOL, are you kidding me? It's a hypothetical situation. Change the fact pattern and say she called on the phone. She plays around with fingerstyle at home (mind out of the gutter), and leads music once a month. Sometimes she wants to tune down.

Just exercise some higher order thinking skills here and think about how you'd build the guitar.
Author:  theguitarwhisperer [ Fri May 24, 2013 8:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: You be the luthier
That triple neck seems to be the ticket for this one.
Author:  Trevor Gore [ Sat May 25, 2013 6:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: You be the luthier
The supersonic fighter-bomber/submarine/spaceship thing rarely works.

Except in comic books. There's too many compromises.

However, I didn't say never works. If Claudia is prepared to swap nut, saddle and strings when she's feeling really low, this guitar does the deed. (Second one down, built not for Claudia, but for Danny.)
Author:  Clinchriver [ Sat May 25, 2013 7:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: You be the luthier
I'd say "try this D-28" duh and if she was still confused I'd send to to GC to buy a Taylor laughing6-hehe
Author:  Tony_in_NYC [ Sat May 25, 2013 7:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: You be the luthier
It's a hypothetical question? Sheesh! All of my hypothetical customers pay double what I'm asking and then send me effusive thank you notes on a semiannual basis! You need to find better hypothetical customers.
Author:  Clay S. [ Sat May 25, 2013 8:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: You be the luthier
bliss The beauty of hypothetical guitars for hypothetical customers is that they always turn out as hypothetically expected! bliss

Real world guitars for real world customers can have a far different outcome. I would build a 12 fret triple O, and if she didn't like it have something sellable to someone else, with no hard feelings either way. Sometimes a clients expectations exceed the abilities of the materials and the craftsman. For some people the "Holy Grail" is more about the quest than the acquisition, and they can never be satisfied.
Author:  Mike Baker [ Sat May 25, 2013 9:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: You be the luthier
I don't build for customers, and I know this is a hypothetical question and you're really looking at how other builders would approach this instrument. Having said that, hypothetical or not, I would try to narrow her expectations. Trying to build a guitar that will do all of those things and have all of those characteristics is a big ball of trouble, IMHO. I'd be willing to bet that a great many master luthiers have been chasing something like that for all of their careers and failed to find it.
IMHO the "client's" expectations are way too high, and trying to build an instrument for a client that wants practically everything in one instrument is a recipe for frustration, aggravation, and trouble. Especially when, halfway through the build, she decides to change something/ add a few more characteristics, etc. IMO, way more trouble than she's worth. The instrument I would build for her is none.
Author:  James Orr [ Sat May 25, 2013 10:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: You be the luthier
I think it's interesting that some of you think it's a tall order or that it's asking a lot out of one guitar. Might I ask why you think so?
Author:  alan stassforth [ Sat May 25, 2013 10:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: You be the luthier
Build anything you want,
and tell her it's got overtones and good fundamentals!
Author:  SteveSmith [ Sat May 25, 2013 10:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: You be the luthier
I think guitars are like most things we build. If you want high performance in one area (std tuning) the guitar has to be optimized for that which will necessarily result in lower performance in other areas (very low tuning). A compromise may be possible (beyond my skill set, at the moment) but I can't see it being optimized for either tuning. That's one reason why many guitarists use two or more guitars on stage. Obviously JMO.
Author:  Greg B [ Sat May 25, 2013 12:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: You be the luthier
Quote:
I think it's interesting that some of you think it's a tall order or that it's asking a lot out of one guitar. Might I ask why you think so?


Seems to me a lot of people are looking at it like an engineer instead of a musician. She probably just wants to goof around with some slack key tunings on occasion. Big deal. Most slack key players use pretty ordinary off the shelf guitars, yet they manage to sound good. IMHO as long as the action is not set super low, and the top is on the loose side, it'll be fine.
Page 1 of 2 All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/