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frets keep popping loose later on
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Author:  Tai Fu [ Tue Jun 11, 2013 3:28 am ]
Post subject:  frets keep popping loose later on
What could possibly cause frets (which was fine to begin with) to begin to pop up months later?

I have been having problem with this same 12 string guitar, it keeps coming back due to buzzing or whatever. For some reason the dovetail decided to come loose (how it happened is a complete mystery to me) so I had to redo it without refretting the guitar. Well now it came back for buzzing and it looked like some frets decided to pop up in the middle. So will bedding the fret with hide glue (some what some of you do) help? Sometimes I wonder if the hammering somehow built up residual stress that pushes the fret out?
Author:  Chris Pile [ Tue Jun 11, 2013 3:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: frets keep popping loose later on
Sounds like a lack of humidity problem to me.
Author:  dradlin [ Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: frets keep popping loose later on
So the frets were not glued when initially installed?

Considerations: fret wire pre-bend is too much; fret slot too big; inconsistent install method; no glue to help it stay.

Dave
Author:  Tai Fu [ Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: frets keep popping loose later on
No I didnt glue it, I add some thin CA after it went in. I guess I can try expanding the tang or something, and put hide glue in the slot before installing it. I will also try pressimg them rather than hammering but not sure how to do it on an acoustic guitar
Author:  Michael.N. [ Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: frets keep popping loose later on
Forget CA, it's more of a hindrance than a help. Firstly you will need to measure the slot width. If it's near 0.75 mm's and under you can use standard fretwire. If it's wider then you will have to increase the grip on the barbs.
Assuming it's at 0.75 mm's: Clean the slot out without widening it. Wirewool the underside of the fretwire, get it bright and clean. Glue with Fish glue or HHG, on the fretwire and in the slot. Tap the wire home (tap is all it takes) and then clamp using a caul and packing at the back of the Neck. I use Cedrela for the caul and roughly shape it to the contour of the fretboard. Wax it. The cedrela compresses easily and will clamp the fret/frets to the board. I usually make 2 such cauls that span 4 or 5 frets at any one time. When the glue is dry I simply continue up the board. You will also need to make a counterform for the back of the Neck. Doesn't need to totally encapsulate the Neck, just some of the curve. Line it with cork.
Let it all settle for a few days before leveling frets.
Author:  Alain Moisan [ Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: frets keep popping loose later on
Michael.N. wrote:
Forget CA, it's more of a hindrance than a help.


Michael what makes you say that? I'm curious as I just started to glue my frets with CA...
Author:  Michael.N. [ Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: frets keep popping loose later on
Because it's a pain to get rid of. Once you flood the slot with CA it quickly soaks into the end grain. That's it, it's sealed. At least with Fish and HHG it's pretty easy to clean it all out of the slot and those glues certainly grip the wire far more than you really need it, as this test shows:

Image

One is a normal slot, hammered, no glue. The other is a slightly wider slot (0.75 mm) and glued in using Fish Glue. At the wider slot width you don't really need to chamfer the slot edges either. Soldering iron and damp cloth and they steam out, no damage or chip outs.
Author:  Tai Fu [ Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: frets keep popping loose later on
So how does hide glue stick to metal fretwire? I'm not sure I understand the test picture you attached... was it pulled with a certain force and one came out while the other did not? I thought CA was good because it doesn't actually bond to the fretwire but the glue backflows into the barb holding it in place... but then I would love to try hide glue because it's very easy to clean out compared to CA.
Author:  Alain Moisan [ Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: frets keep popping loose later on
Thanks for the explanations Michael.
Author:  Michael.N. [ Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: frets keep popping loose later on
The glue fills in around the barbs locking the wire in place. There's probably a certain amount of adhesion between the Fish glue and the metal.
The test was the fretwire overhanging the board by a couple of inches. Each fret overhang was pushed up using an index finger. The hammered in fret bends a little and pulls out of the board. The glued in fret bends at 90 degrees and only the very end of the wire comes out of the slot. Pretty conclusive if you ask me. I've done the same test using Fish and HHG. Fish gives the better result although HHG was pretty decent. You do need some grip from the wood though. Sawing a 0.9 mm slot and using Fish or HHG glue will not work very well, I've tried it. Stay at around 0.7 - 0.75 mm's and it works fine. Do the test yourself. Costs a bit of fretwire, some glue and takes but a few minutes.
Author:  Tai Fu [ Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: frets keep popping loose later on
what's .7mm in inches? is that .040?
Author:  Tai Fu [ Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: frets keep popping loose later on
thing is, the fret slot already have CA in it so is it beyond hope?

Also many manufacturers bed frets in CA...
Author:  Colin North [ Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: frets keep popping loose later on
Tai Fu wrote:
what's .7mm in inches? is that .040?

0.02756"
Author:  Michael.N. [ Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: frets keep popping loose later on
Tai Fu wrote:
thing is, the fret slot already have CA in it so is it beyond hope?

Also many manufacturers bed frets in CA...


Again, why don't you try it? Scrap of wood, CA it first. Let dry. Then test. Do it a few times. Then do it using Ebony, Rosewood and any other fretboard wood you care to try.
Nothing quite like testing in the real world. This test happens to cost virtually nada and just a bit of time.
Test, test, test. If it fails you've lost a bit of time. If it's a success you can sleep easy knowing that it will work on the actual Guitar.
Author:  Stuart Gort [ Tue Jun 11, 2013 1:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: frets keep popping loose later on
Michael.N. wrote:
Nothing quite like testing in the real world. This test happens to cost virtually nada and just a bit of time.
Test, test, test. If it fails you've lost a bit of time. If it's a success you can sleep easy knowing that it will work on the actual Guitar.


+1 [:Y:]
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