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[Absolute Newbie] Clamps required for acoustic build..
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Author:  dave.c [ Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:56 pm ]
Post subject:  [Absolute Newbie] Clamps required for acoustic build..
Hello all,

This is my first post on these forums so I guess a little introduction is in order...

...my name is Dave, I'm 28, I live in the UK. A few months ago I decided that I'd like to build my own acoustic guitar. I've never done anything like this before, had no experience in woodworking and had very little knowledge of what goes in to building a guitar, but hey-ho, we all start somewhere! What I do have is a fairly technical mind, a hell of a lot of patience and and a piece of ply bolted to my table in my tiny flat. It wobbles something awful, and I dream of the day when I have a workshop...

So far I've thicknessed my front, I've got some veneer in the post to do my rosette, and I've nearly finished thicknessing the back. My progress is slow, it's difficult and time consuming by I'm having so much FUN. I love it.

Anyway, I had a question, which I have tried to google, and I've got some ideas, but ultimately I don't know. I'm sure some (if not all) of you do!

I'm in the market for some clamps, so far I've made do with a couple of G-clamps, but soon they won't be at all suitable. I've seen cam clamps, I've seen screw clamps, I've seen clamps that look like guns, and clamps that look like torture devices, but I'm not really sure what I should buy.

So what would you recommend an absolute novice (with very little budget and very little room) buy? What do I need as an absolute minimum, what would be pretty useful to have? What would be great, but isn't essential? I appreciate your thoughts.

Oh, and while you're at it, what books do you think a beginner with big ideas should read? I'm working from Guitar Making: Trad & Tech but I'd really like to learn more about.. well... everything!

Thanks,
Dave.

(P.S. If you want to find out exactly how micky mouse my operation is, I'm writing about it here: http://acousticbuild.blogspot.co.uk/)
Author:  Rodger Knox [ Tue Oct 08, 2013 1:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: [Absolute Newbie] Clamps required for acoustic build..
One of the first things you learn is that you NEVER have enough clamps. I like the F clamps when I need some serious clamping force, I've got a dozen or so of those in various sizes. Pipe clamps can also be handy.
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The metal binder clips in various sizes are great for glueing on linings.
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I like homemade spool clamps when I need a lot of clamps but not much force.
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Then there's the alternative of a go-bar deck, I'm sure someone that uses that method will chime in.
Author:  DennisK [ Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: [Absolute Newbie] Clamps required for acoustic build..
Cam clamps for me! You can see my small collection in the corner here http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=547216#p547216. Three 8", four 6", three 4". I did my first couple guitars with only two of each, but I wasn't really comfortable with how far they had to be spaced apart when gluing X braces, so I'd recommend at least seven total.

If you're building with an outside mould and radius dish, then you can do your brace clamping with go-bars rather than cam clamps. You can also use the go-bars for box closing in this style, but I build freestanding, and close with spool clamps, which are easy to make, but you need a lot of them (at least 30), so the cost is still not negligible. Also, I use the cam clamps for the fingerboard, so you'll still need at least 6 of those. Personally I use 8 or 9, with no caul (I level, radius, and fret the board on the guitar).

I also have two tiny quick grip clamps, which come in handy quite often because of their light weight.

For linings, you'll need a bunch of small pinchy clamps. I get by with 12 of them (I use full height side braces, and glue linings in small sections between them).

For the bridge, I use air pressure :mrgreen: Otherwise known as the hide glue rub joint.

And you really don't need much space to build a guitar. My "bench" is 2x4 feet, and 6" high :P I sit on top of it while working, so any force I put into the wood goes right into the surface it's sitting on, wobble free :) I actually came up with the design when I lived in a small apartment where I didn't want to be stuck with a super massive bench to move later, but also wasn't allowed to bolt anything to the walls/floor to prevent wobble. The slight elevation provides enough clearance for sawing things over the edge, and there's a small overhang so I can clamp things around the edge. It would be nice if I could use my leg strength when planing things to thickness, but on the other hand, my arms need more exercise anyway. I also like having the use of my feet to hold onto things, so I've stuck with this design over the years.
Author:  Fred Tellier [ Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: [Absolute Newbie] Clamps required for acoustic build..
Like mentioned above you never have enough clamps it seems. If you build a Go Bar deck you can eliminate quite a few clamps.

Fred
Author:  Greg B [ Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: [Absolute Newbie] Clamps required for acoustic build..
If you're going with the Cumpiano & Natelson open workboard approach, IME a minimum setup would be about 4 each 6" and 8" cam clamps, an Ibex bridge clamp, and a few C clamps. Actually, you could get away with cam clamps for gluing on the bridge.
Author:  Trevor Gore [ Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: [Absolute Newbie] Clamps required for acoustic build..
dave.c wrote:
Oh, and while you're at it, what books do you think a beginner with big ideas should read?... ... ... I'd really like to learn more about.. well... everything!

Technical mind...lots of patience...big ideas... You could try this.
Author:  Tony_in_NYC [ Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: [Absolute Newbie] Clamps required for acoustic build..
I built my first, a kit, with three cam clamps and 3 or 4 ratchet clamps. I also built it on the floor of my living room. I now have many more clamps, but you can get it done with fewer. I used a halo style caul and 2" wood screws to glue the top and back. You can see the instructions I used here:
www.KennethMichaelGuitars.com
Look for the success kit instructions. He also has some good tips for building your first guitar sand any others after it. Cheap, home made tool ideas too.
Author:  James Orr [ Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: [Absolute Newbie] Clamps required for acoustic build..
Fred Tellier wrote:
Like mentioned above you never have enough clamps it seems. If you build a Go Bar deck you can eliminate quite a few clamps.


I have three 12" Jorgensen style steel bar clamps, two C-clamps, five spring clamps, and at least 60 go bars that I made with 3/16" fiberglass rod from Into The Wind. Every now and then I wish I were stocked with an assortment of beautiful cam clamps, etc, but I've never not had what I needed.
Author:  the Padma [ Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: [Absolute Newbie] Clamps required for acoustic build..
The difference between a cabinet maker and a luthier is the number of clamps.
On a rough count, me gots
25 F style bar,
30 cam,
15 Jorgensens,
24 shop mates,
about 5 dozen small assorted alligator/springers for linings,
8 short and 8 long bar clamps...
then theres that box of C clamps but we won't go there....
and ya know what...
me still don't gotts enough clamps. laughing6-hehe

But you don't need no wheres that many to start with.
Author:  TimAllen [ Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: [Absolute Newbie] Clamps required for acoustic build..
+1 on the go-bar deck. You can use it for gluing braces, top/back to sides, and other things as well. You can buy parts to make it with, but if you have access to a table saw and scraps of wood you can make a serviceable go-bar deck for no additional cost.
Author:  ntredwell [ Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: [Absolute Newbie] Clamps required for acoustic build..
Being in the UK a couple of places worth visiting for clamps.

Aldi sell a multi pack for under a 10, which are surprisingly good quality. Though only on sale when they do diy offers.

Pound land sell small spring clamps in packs of 4, really good for gluing linings, i get another pack every time i pass.

Tool station is also worth a look for really good prices.



Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk 4
Author:  Trevor Gore [ Wed Oct 09, 2013 4:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: [Absolute Newbie] Clamps required for acoustic build..
For those contemplating spool clamps or similar, here's an alternative that one of the guys on the ANZLF came up with.
Author:  Michael.N. [ Wed Oct 09, 2013 5:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: [Absolute Newbie] Clamps required for acoustic build..
Very much doubt that he was the first. I saw that type of clamp in use over 30 years ago! In fact I used a steel ring version to glue the linings on my very first Guitar - circa 1976! I think Peter Oberg uses something similar to close the lids on his Guitars.
It's often used by Violin repairers as well. I've heard them referred to as being 'calamari clamps'. Good solution though.
Author:  dave.c [ Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: [Absolute Newbie] Clamps required for acoustic build..
Wow, lots and lots of information here!

I shall read them all in detail when I'm home from work, I'll just say thanks for all the fantastic feedback.

A few general responses to things after a quick read of the above replies;

- I've seen Go Bar Decks used on a couple of YouTube videos. I don't know why, but I didn't really like the idea of it. I think it was the idea of making the radius dishes that I didn't like, it seemed like the type of thing that I would be worried about getting sufficiently accurate.

- I am working with an open workboard, as per Cumpiano's book.

I think I'm going to add the following to my shopping list;
Cam clamps (as many as I can afford)
A few F and/or C clamps
Materials to build spool clamps. Many, many spool clamps.

Once again, thanks!
Author:  Trevor Gore [ Wed Oct 09, 2013 9:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: [Absolute Newbie] Clamps required for acoustic build..
Michael.N. wrote:
In fact I used a steel ring version to glue the linings on my very first Guitar - circa 1976!

Yep, the steel spring mitre clamps have been around since Adam was a boy. I thought the PVC pipe was a neat idea (I hadn't seen it before) which allows you to customise the span and clamping force on a budget and make custom clamps for odd jobs.
Author:  James Orr [ Wed Oct 09, 2013 9:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: [Absolute Newbie] Clamps required for acoustic build..
dave.c wrote:
I think it was the idea of making the radius dishes that I didn't like, it seemed like the type of thing that I would be worried about getting sufficiently accurate.


Makes sense! Some people make their own, but I think the majority of us buy them. A few of our sponsors sell them. I have four from Luthier Suppliers, and they're excellent. Shane from High Mountain sells them as well.
Author:  Rodger Knox [ Wed Oct 09, 2013 9:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: [Absolute Newbie] Clamps required for acoustic build..
It wouldn't be a bad idea to scroll through some of the old challenge threads, that would be a good place to compare building techniques and the clamps, jigs, and fixtures required for that technique.
Author:  whiskywill [ Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: [Absolute Newbie] Clamps required for acoustic build..
dave.c wrote:
Oh, and while you're at it, what books do you think a beginner with big ideas should read?



Welcome to the party. I have all the books that I can find (Except Somogyi-- too poor) and think that Jonathan Kinkead's has the clearest approach to building a steel string guitar. http://www.alibris.co.uk/search/books/a ... an-Kinkead
Author:  Mark Mc [ Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: [Absolute Newbie] Clamps required for acoustic build..
On clamps....
The go bar deck is very useful, even though it takes up a bit of space. You can disassemble it easily and pack it away when not in use.
I was the one who suggested using sections of PVC pipe for clamps on the ANZLF. Definitely not an original concept - but it is a cheap and available material.

On books....
Jonathan Kinkead's book is a good one to use for your first build. I had it, and Cumpiano's, and found the Kinkead one to be clearer and more pictorial.
Trevor Gore and Gerard Gilet's 2 volume set is the definitive text. Get it now if you can afford it. But you will definitely want to get it later if your addiction to lutherie becomes serious!
cheers
Mark
Author:  Clay S. [ Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: [Absolute Newbie] Clamps required for acoustic build..
Some other things worth mentioning are clothes pins, rubber bands and masking tape. Much of the clamping required in guitar construction doesn't require great pressure as much as keeping things in position while the glue dries.
Also along these lines using weights (water filled jugs, stacks of books, etc.) can come in handy.
I do have a large assortment of clamps, but still find other clamping strategies to be useful.
Author:  Ruby50 [ Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: [Absolute Newbie] Clamps required for acoustic build..
I am on my third and won't build many more, and I didn't want to invest in go-bar decks and sanding/gluing dishes. I made sanding gluing/battens out of aged, douglas fir 2X3's, and I used the halo that Tony alluded to, but I used clamps on it.

The halo has 8 cam clamps and 6 light duty bar clamps, but any combination can work. It is made of 2 layers of 1/4" plywood with staggered seams, so it is 1/2" thick.

The curved batten has 80 grit sandpaper glued to the surface and rides on a bolt in the middle of the mold for spinning. The 2-1/2" surface is wide enough that it does not dig in.

Because I build furniture a lot, it turns out I have too many clamps for guitar building, so there goes that theory.

Ed Minch
Author:  Spyder [ Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: [Absolute Newbie] Clamps required for acoustic build..
I would also recommend rubber bands, lots of big rubber bands. I bought the set from Stew Mac for binding, and they come in real handy.
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