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| Glue choice: regluing celluloid bindings (1970s Vega)? http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=42487 |
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| Author: | Todd Rose [ Sat Jan 18, 2014 6:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Glue choice: regluing celluloid bindings (1970s Vega)? |
Hi all, I posted this question on the repair board, but only got one reply; maybe more people will see it here. A first time operation for me: regluing celluloid bindings that have pulled away from the waist. The guitar is a 1970's Vega dread. It needs a neck reset, too, so I've got the neck off. I'll separate the bindings from the waist all the way up to the neck, then reglue them. My question is what glue to use. My first thought was to go with one of the glues commonly used for plastic bindings: weld-on or one of the glues LMI sells for this purpose. But the more I think about cleaning that stuff up after gluing, the more I think maybe there are better options for a repair situation like this. On this page, Frank Ford demonstrates using wood glue for this: http://frets.com/FretsPages/Luthier/Tec ... nding.html Now, Frank is a trusted source, but I can't help worrying a bit about wood glue having sufficient bonding strength with a plastic like celluloid. Can anyone here confirm that wood glue is a good choice? Or, for that matter, hide glue or fish glue? My understanding is that animal glues have been used to bond various materials like glass, for example, though I don't personally have experience with this, and I'm not sure about plastics. It sure would be nice to be able to clean up with water and leave the finish unscathed. I would even consider epoxy, as I could clean that up with alcohol before it cures, but a water clean up would be ideal. Thanks! |
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Sat Jan 18, 2014 8:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Glue choice: regluing celluloid bindings (1970s Vega)? |
I use Titebond. So far it seems to work great. Perhaps someone with more experience will speak up. |
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| Author: | Todd Rose [ Sat Jan 18, 2014 3:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Glue choice: regluing celluloid bindings (1970s Vega)? |
Thanks for your input, Steve! |
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| Author: | Jeff Highland [ Sat Jan 18, 2014 6:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Glue choice: regluing celluloid bindings (1970s Vega)? |
If there are fine wood fibres on the surface of the celluloid, titebond will adhere fine. |
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| Author: | Kevin Waldron [ Sun Jan 19, 2014 8:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Glue choice: regluing celluloid bindings (1970s Vega)? |
Roo Glue ........ RooClear for specifics... dries complete clear and will glue almost anything..... It was designed for Melamine and Vinyl but haven't found much it want glue. Been using all Roo Glue products for several years now ( 4 different glues ) ....... no comparison to the major 3 other companies in our opinion. Blessings, Kevin |
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| Author: | Todd Rose [ Sun Jan 19, 2014 9:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Glue choice: regluing celluloid bindings (1970s Vega)? |
That makes sense, Jeff. Steve, in your experience, have you found that having wood fibers on the surface of the celluloid is requisite to bonding with Titebond? |
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| Author: | Todd Rose [ Sun Jan 19, 2014 9:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Glue choice: regluing celluloid bindings (1970s Vega)? |
Kevin Waldron wrote: Roo Glue ........ RooClear for specifics... dries complete clear and will glue almost anything..... It was designed for Melamine and Vinyl but haven't found much it want glue. Been using all Roo Glue products for several years now ( 4 different glues ) ....... no comparison to the major 3 other companies in our opinion. Blessings, Kevin Hadn't heard of Roo Glue before, Kevin. Just looked at their web site. Sounds good. However, they describe their glues as being highly water resistant and difficult to clean up once cured. For this application (regluing bindings on a finished instrument), it seems to me that being able to clean up with water after removing the tape would be a major time savings over using any kind of glue that will require scraping to clean up. |
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| Author: | Kevin Waldron [ Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Glue choice: regluing celluloid bindings (1970s Vega)? |
Todd, Wouldn't have recommended it if I thought it wouldn't work for your applications... suggest you get some and try on something as an experiment. Blessings, Kevin |
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| Author: | Todd Rose [ Sun Jan 19, 2014 7:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Glue choice: regluing celluloid bindings (1970s Vega)? |
Thanks, Kevin. I'll consider it. |
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| Author: | Wayne Brown [ Sun Jan 19, 2014 8:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Glue choice: regluing celluloid bindings (1970s Vega)? |
If it were me, I would use Titebond (orig.). It won't harm your finish and any glue residue after it dries can be cleaned up with water. |
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| Author: | Todd Rose [ Tue Jan 21, 2014 5:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Glue choice: regluing celluloid bindings (1970s Vega)? |
Thanks for your input, Wayne. If you've had good luck with regluing celluloid bindings with Titebond, in cases where there are no wood fibers stuck to the surface of the celluloid, I'd be interested in hearing about that. In the case of the Vega I'm working on, the bindings came off with some glue stuck to them, but no wood. It's a yellowish, gummy glue that remains mostly on the wood of the binding channels, and a little on the bindings, and it is proving to be a pain to get it off -- not so bad getting it off the bindings, but tough to get it off the wood. In any case, with the bindings cleaned up, I'm don't think I'm going to try Titebond. I posted my question on another forum, too, and got a very helpful reply, which I will quote here: "I've used LMI's FCA contact adhesive for two repairs, now, and it's the cat's meow. Paint it on with a small brush, press the binding on, no problem. No squeeze out and the brush allows great control of the glue application to keep from contaminating the neighboring finish. Clamping helps to get full contact -- because of the lack of squeeze-out, it's very easy to firmly tape the re-attached binding to the body without danger of smearing. The brush cleans up completely with acetone, so no problem there, either. I use an artist's brush appropriate to the size of the job. I've tried the wood glue method but unless there's some wood chunks stuck to the binding and there is an exact fit with the separated wood area, it hasn't worked for me." This sounds good to me. I've ordered some of the FCA adhesive from LMI. |
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| Author: | John Killin [ Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Glue choice: regluing celluloid bindings (1970s Vega)? |
Todd, This is a timely post. I'm about to start working on a late 70's Martin that the binding is coming loose. I'd love to hear your feedback on the LMI glue. I had planned on using Duco for this one but if there is something better, I'd like to know. John |
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| Author: | Todd Rose [ Sat Feb 01, 2014 6:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Glue choice: regluing celluloid bindings (1970s Vega)? |
Update: I used a chisel and palette knife - both heated with a propane torch - to remove the old glue from the binding channels. Worked well and went pretty fast. Scraped the old glue from the bindings with an exacto knife. The LMI FCA adhesive worked well. Provides less than a minute of open time, so I worked quickly, one section at a time, taping the binding down as I went. I brushed it on with a small, cheap artists brush - a flat brush about 3/16" wide. The beauty of this adhesive is that, although it is a fairly thin liquid in the bottle, it begins to set up into a gummy substance the instant you brush it on, and then, unless you've applied way too much (which I did in a couple spots), it doesn't squeeze out, so it's possible to do a very clean job. As an experiment, on one side I did a short section using StewMac brush on CA. That provides plenty of open time, and adheres well. A viable alternative, I'd say, but I found it more difficult to control in terms of squeeze out. I did the rest of that side with the LMI stuff. |
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| Author: | gxs [ Sat Feb 01, 2014 11:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Glue choice: regluing celluloid bindings (1970s Vega)? |
Re: " I've tried the wood glue method but unless there's some wood chunks stuck to the binding and there is an exact fit with the separated wood area, it hasn't worked for me." If there are no wood fibers to bind, I have found scuffing the surface of the binding that will be glued and then using Titebond works well. then tape it with low tack tape (painter's tape that I stick on my pant leg before using). Regards, G |
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| Author: | Todd Rose [ Mon Feb 03, 2014 6:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Glue choice: regluing celluloid bindings (1970s Vega)? |
gxs wrote: If there are no wood fibers to bind, I have found scuffing the surface of the binding that will be glued and then using Titebond works well. then tape it with low tack tape (painter's tape that I stick on my pant leg before using). Regards, G Interesting. Thanks. |
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| Author: | Todd Rose [ Mon Feb 03, 2014 6:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Glue choice: regluing celluloid bindings (1970s Vega)? |
In the other thread (on the repair board) I started on this same topic, Todd Stock made a post with lots of pertinent observations from his experience. viewtopic.php?f=10137&t=42475&p=562490#p562490 |
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