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Endblock grain
http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=42509		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:58 am ]
Post subject:  Endblock grain
All my endblocks have been with grain the same as the sides, on paper it gives similar movement ratios. However if the guitar is subjected to extreme humidity, the sides will expand a good deal, and if you have a vertical grain graft (likely with purfling) these will not move and you can get some serious gaps.

So what about vertical grain blocks? Searching in my interiors photofile I already found a number of important classical makers that do(did) vertical: Ramirez, Hernandez y Aguado, Miguel Rodriguez, Felix Manazanero (not sure on the photo but looks like the same Ramirez half circle shape, and he came from their tradition) Tobias Berg, David Merrin, Amalio Burguet and others.

I also know many steel builders here use cross-ply blocks which essentially should act like vertical grain (with added split resistance)

One down-side to vertical grain is that when the sides expand, the glue film might be greatly stressed since the block will not bend.

At the other extreme, when the sides shrink a lot, they might crack.

Violins have vertical blocks (and maple really expands a lot across the grain) but I don't know about cellos.

Thanks!
Author:  arie [ Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Endblock grain
i go with the fleta style for both blocks. easy and stout and so far nothing's broken, cracked, or moved. i don't know if this means much, but i don't make my blocks square either -they're half round and radiused on the glue faces as well. the neck block has a small foot and a full fretboard extension all the way to the utg. my usual tail blocks are fairly thick and pre-drilled before assembly for endpins and jacks etc. i use cedro for my blocks. i don't use hide glue but titebond which has a little bit of give to it.
hope this helps.:)
Author:  Clay S. [ Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Endblock grain
Mahogany end blocks have about the same expansion rate as rosewood for blocks running with the grain. If you do a vertical grain graft it will move differently from the sides even if the block is vertical. Does any one do an end graft with the grain running with the sides?
I use multi-ply plywood blocking. My (limited) understanding is that it behave somewhat in between horizontal and vertical blocks.
Author:  Eric Reid [ Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Endblock grain
If the guitar will be built in a climate controlled shop, spend it's life in a controlled environment, and never get dropped or bumped, then it doesn't much matter what kind of end block you use. In the real world, you get to choose between impact damage and humidity damage. The end graft is a problem, but a small one. you could leave it out, or you could plan on making a repair there if the guitar gets badly dried out. If you run the end block grain across the side grain, the sides will split when the guitar dries out. Yes, Fleta did it that way, and yes, Fletas crack at the end block when they dry out. Fleta was working in the violin building tradition. Here's a discussion of the issue in string basses:http://www.hamstringsmusic.com/RibsAndLinings.htm
Author:  the Padma [ Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Endblock grain
Horizontal, same wood as the ribs. End of wood movement problem. Glue? What ever sticks!
Author:  arie [ Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Endblock grain
Filippo Morelli wrote:
So would you actually want the glue to creep in this circumstance? (Arie mentioned use of Titebond for this glue-up).

Filippo


actually no. but being a vegetarian i don't have a lot of choices -well except epoxy, ca, and whatever else that's probably not necessary for endblocks. yes, i'll build with as much control as i reasonably can can but ultimately humidity control is the owners problem as well as dropping the guitar on the end pin.

interesting idea with the silk. what glue do you think he's using?
http://www.hamstringsmusic.com/RibsAndLinings.htm
Author:  Colin North [ Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Endblock grain
Quote:
James Ham is a professional luthier dedicated to the repair, restoration and new construction of violin family instruments and bows.

A member of the prestigious American Federation of Violin and Bowmakers, he began his career in 1972 as a repairman and honed his skills by working on thousands of instruments. These skills were acquired mostly by self tutelage but two key mentors are bowmaker Francis Rutherford and violinmaker Raymond Schryer.


Just might be HHG he uses.
Author:  bluescreek [ Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Endblock grain
you guys are way over thinking this.
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Endblock grain
When customers suck, I am not overthinking it :( Attachment shows swamp soaked damage, endblock same grain as sides. Less of this happens with rosewood but it still does. Some of it might be from the plates pushing the guitar wide apart?

Now, if cracks would really be a big problem with vertical endblocks, why is Ramirez still doing it? I've seen it in several guitars spanning decades.
Author:  wbergman [ Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Endblock grain
Would a Vegan use shellac?
Author:  bluescreek [ Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Endblock grain
you have to be specific on your warranty. If your customer allows the guitar to he over humidified then it is on him. Martin warranty is the industry standard and they do not cover Humidity issues. They also use the grain with the sides on the end block.
Author:  the Padma [ Wed Jan 22, 2014 6:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Endblock grain
wbergman wrote:
Would a Vegan use shellac?


Wood probably eat it too! laughing6-hehe
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Wed Jan 22, 2014 6:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Endblock grain
Sure, not my fault in this case, but still, I'd like to figure out if I could change something to reduce damage when the next moron does something similar. I'll waste less time fixing the problem.
And on the pictured guitar, what can I do now? The guitar has dried pretty well (3 weeks in 55%) but no sign of the gap closing. What can I do? Fill it? It will look like crap and next guy looking at the guitar will think "Marian sucks really hard at mitering purflings" when it fact it was perfectly tight in the first place. Or I could replace the endgraft - lots of joy....
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Wed Jan 22, 2014 6:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Endblock grain
Waiting for someone to invent the time machine. I'll get back in time and father the sob.

As a curiosity, that guitar, after 3 weeks in 55%, lost nearly two ounces of weight (48 grams)
Author:  bluescreek [ Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Endblock grain
fact is you can't protect a product from an idiot. Amazes me how people will spend good money for a handmade instrument and then assume they don't have to do anything to protect it. I have learned to be more specific on my warranty. Fortunately they are in a minority. Wayne Henderson had a customer actually shoot a hole in a guitar. At least he didn't ask if it was covered.
Author:  James Ringelspaugh [ Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Endblock grain
Alexandru Marian wrote:
When customers suck, I am not overthinking it :( Attachment shows swamp soaked damage, endblock same grain as sides. Less of this happens with rosewood but it still does. Some of it might be from the plates pushing the guitar wide apart?

Now, if cracks would really be a big problem with vertical endblocks, why is Ramirez still doing it? I've seen it in several guitars spanning decades.


Ouch, knowing some customers have problems with stuff like this makes me very glad I decided to go back to amateur building
Author:  the Padma [ Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Endblock grain
Now you dudes know why me warranty stops at the door, and the only guarantee offered is that me made it. Beyond that, good luck.

Who said 'the average person is actually quite dumb and the other half are dumber"? laughing6-hehe

Me thinks he hit it right on the head.
Author:  crich [ Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Endblock grain
I've been using plywood for endblocks? idunno Clinton
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