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Naive questions
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Author:  jonbill [ Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Naive questions
Hello everyone. This is my first post here.

I'm a beginning guitarist who likes to build stuff. I love to tear things apart and see how they can be done better. I tend to look at things and ask why they are the way they are in the first place and want to start from scratch. I have an old Ovation acoustic that I intend to experiment on and I need help with a few decisions.

In learning to play, I'm finding already that there are things I can't play because the string spacing is too tight for my fat fingers. It's easier to play my wife's classical guitar but I want to play acoustic.

My first question is why nut widths are what they are? Why do acoustic guitars have narrower nuts than classical guitars? Why is the maximum width of a classical about 2"? With my hand span - about 230mm from thumb to pinkie - and from experimenting with my wife's guitar it seems like 2 1/8" would be about right for me. It doesn't make sense to me that with so much variation from person to person it should be, more or less, one-size-fits-all.

My second question is, why is the neck even narrower at the nut? It seems to me it would be better if it had a constant width.

I'm wondering how much of this is just tradition and how much has a real rationale behind it.

Thanks,

Jon.
Author:  nyazzip [ Tue Mar 04, 2014 3:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Naive questions
it is common for beginners to start blaming the equipment....try to resist that thought process. if guitar nut dimensions didn't work, then they wouldn't be the sizes that they are. plenty of excellent guitar players out there have large hands/fat fingers and play standard instruments, so unless you are some sort of freak of nature, then you don't need to be worrying about the dimensions of the nut being wrong.
ever look at a mandolin or violin nut? plenty of normal sized men playing those at the virtuso level, too.
stringed instrument playing isn't easy.
regarding taper, (assuming a right handed guitar) the bridge spacing has to be wide enough for the left hand fingers to slide between- and if this width was used at the nut, it would be considered way too wide for the vast majority of humanlike creatures....
Author:  Joe Beaver [ Tue Mar 04, 2014 3:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Naive questions
Jon, good questions, wish I knew the answers to them also. That being said allow me to forge ahead with supposition.

Why does the string spacing grow wider toward the bridge? I don't have a clue except for maybe aesthetics, and the resonance of a plucked sting might change if their neighbor is equal distance? Don't know.

I suspect string spacing is wider on a classical because tradition dictates the strings are plucked by finger, as apposed to plectrum (pick) on a steel string. My guess is they made the strings as close as possible and still be able to fret notes and chords. I agree the martin standard of a 1 11/16" nut width is way to close. My normal is 1 13/16"
Author:  RusRob [ Tue Mar 04, 2014 4:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Naive questions
I have to agree with nyazzip. You will get use to what you play more frequently and over time you will be able to adjust to any neck width. I have a number of guitars from a Martin D-18 to a little Art & Luthier Parlor. The Art & Luthier is a very narrow neck and string spacing and when I first pick it up it feels cramped to me but after about 5 minutes I don't notice it.

It really has more to do with muscle memory than anything else. I remember many years ago when I started playing I thought the strings were too close together just as you do. Now that I have learned the position of the chords I don't think twice about it. I also have a Fender Strat and a Tele which are both fairly narrow and when I first pick them up after playing my acoustics they feel a lot like my little Parlor.

Neck Scale is the same issue, the longer scale instruments have more space between frets and switching from a short to long scale It takes a few minutes to adjust the chord patterns so you can fret clean notes. But a good guitarist should be able to pick up any instrument and within a few minutes be comfortable with it.

I would say since you are just learning I would stick with one guitar for a while so you can get the muscle memory to strike any chord without thinking about it. Having played guitar for many many years now I find when learning a new song I have to get my muscle memory trained for that song. If I practice it over and over I don't feel like I am really learning it but if I don't play it for a couple of days it seems to come to me much quicker.

So rather than try to build a guitar or modify one I would suggest that you play it a lot and you will get use to how it feels. After you have played for a long time (years) you will find that you prefer one neck width over another or one scale length over another but you should be able to play anything that you pick up.

Just my 2c so take it for what it is worth... idunno

Cheers,
Bob
Author:  Joe Beaver [ Tue Mar 04, 2014 5:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Naive questions
It is good advice to stick with one guitar until you can move around the neck cleanly. (I am a little lacking in that department)

But, keep in mind there is really no 'standard' nut width, bridge spacing or scale length. Most dred Martins for instance are 1 11/16" (a little under 43 MM) but Martin makes quite a few guitars with 1 3/4" or wider necks, (about 44.5mm). You can also find many other steel string accoustics with wider necks.

People who finger pick tend to want the wider necks. Many flat pickers lean toward the Martin dred standard of 1 11/16".

So, pick your poison and develop your own style.
Author:  jonbill [ Tue Mar 04, 2014 5:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Naive questions
I should clarify that I've been a 'beginner' for a long time because no amount of practice or attention to technique allows me to get beyond a certain point on a standard guitar. I don't blame the equipment. I think that it's non-optimal. It's clear from the difference I find between playing my acoustic and my wife's classical that string spacing *does* make a significant difference. I don't see why an acoustic should have a narrower neck than a classical.

I think that the reason that a lot of people give up may be that the instrument is unnecessarily difficult to play. Maybe for more talented players it's not an issue. But maybe more players like me would enjoy it more and stick with it and get further if they didn't have to fight so much with instrument.

I did see one discussion on a classical site that suggested that it may be because you sometimes use your thumb to chord on an acoustic but that's not a good enough answer for me.


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Author:  ZekeM [ Tue Mar 04, 2014 5:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Naive questions
I know plenty of people with large hands who play exceptionally well on standard size necks. Sure a wider spacing may make it easier, but with enough practice you'll get it. Most fingerstyle guitars have a slightly wider spacing to make it easier for get your fingers in there. Which is why I also assume the strings are traditionally wider on the bridge side. It makes it much easier to puck individual strings with the right hand while still having the neck narrow enough on the nut end to easily form chords.
Author:  RusRob [ Tue Mar 04, 2014 5:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Naive questions
Maybe lessons are in order?

I never had lessons or ever learned to read music. I can read it but not to sit down and just play a song. My first guitar was a real piece of junk... literally, When I was 8 I picked it out of someones trash and it was broken and in sad shape. I took it home and fixed it and that is what I learned to play on. By the time I got my first "real" guitar I was just amazed how easy it was to play. But I have been playing and repairing guitars ever since (I am now 60). I have had some pretty bad guitars and some pretty good ones but they all got played on a regular basis. A day doesn't go by that I don't sit down for at least 20 minutes to relax and play a few tunes.
I am guessing that many players here have a similar story as mine and started out playing some pretty bad guitars.

But some people don't do well without some kind of tutoring and having someone tell them the proper way to do things. Lessons are not that expensive so it may be wise to invest your time and money into that as opposed to thinking it is the guitars fault and wanting to change it to suite you. I say that because there have been many times that someone has handed me their guitar to play and to me it would be embarrassing to say no I can't play just any guitar, it has to be made just for me.

The reason there are so many neck widths and scale lengths? Because we can...

Like the saying goes, "Variety is the Spice of Life"

Cheers,
Bob
Author:  Michael.N. [ Tue Mar 04, 2014 5:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Naive questions
There was a time when Classical Guitars had Nut widths that were very similar to steel string acoustics. Some pieces by Giuliani call for the left thumb over the Neck, virtually impossible to do on a modern Classical Guitar.
The spacing developed as the technique developed but Guitars with different Nut widths have always existed. One size most certainly does not fit all. Why should it, fingers come in different sizes. On a modern Classical you will find the lowest to be around 48 mm and the largest at 54 mm's. You get them outside of these measurements but it's very rare.
There is no reason why a steel string Guitar can't have a Nut width of say 50 mm's. Of course it will have to be a special order from a maker. Large volume producers aren't going to do a big run of such Guitars because there is hardly any demand for such a beast.
Action also has a bearing on string spacing. Instruments with higher action need greater string spacing to prevent the fingers from inadvertently dampening adjacent strings.
Of course what you consider difficult (small spacing) many other people consider easy. So the steel string spacing may be considered optimal for the vast majority of people and for the type of music/technique employed on that instrument. If it wasn't optimal it would have changed a long, long time ago. Some makers are idiots but it's very unlikely that they all are. :?
Author:  Joe Beaver [ Tue Mar 04, 2014 5:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Naive questions
Jon

I hear you about 'beginner status'. I have been playing for fifty years with a twenty year hiatus in the middle. I have never gone beyond the beginner status. Seems I have to forget a song I know before I can learn a new one.

You do make a good point about some guitars being unnecessarily difficult to play. So many have a high action, narrow neck and poor strings I don't know how anyone could learn on them.
Author:  cphanna [ Tue Mar 04, 2014 6:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Naive questions
Jon, you have received lots of good advice already. To answer your first question directly, I believe guitar string spacings, scale lengths, neck tapers, etc., came into today's standard sizes because those dimensions are known to produce good sound and also easy playability for most players. HOWEVER... Many experienced players request custom neck widths, scales, tapers and such on commissioned instruments because they want to try something that might suit them better. I believe you should keep practicing on "standard" necks until you become comfortable with them. Only after many, many years of constant playing should you feel the need for neck dimensions outside of the common norm. When you do, I'm sure you can hire a luthier to build one for you.
Author:  Joe Beaver [ Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Naive questions
Regarding standard nut widths, my point is there isn't one. (Not true of electrics, most are 1 11/16")

For instance if you look at Martin by the series (not custom shop):

Standard Series
1-11/16" and 1-3/4" through out series (includes a D-18 at 1-3/4"

Preforming Artist Series,
Most, if not all are 1 3/4"

Marquis Series
Vary from 1-11/16" to 1-3/4" to 1-13/16 to 1-7/8"

Retro Series,
All are 1-3/4"

OM
Most are 1-3/4"

So, I still say, take your pick of the lot and don't look back. (Until you are ready to make a new one)
Author:  Hesh [ Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Naive questions
Hi Jon:

Your's is not an uncommon complaint and there are lots of folks who prefer a wider neck even on a steel string.

Even though there are countless examples of folks who may have been successful learning the basics of guitar playing even though they had large hands just as Jimi Hendrix did with enormous mits/hams on him you still need a solution to what you are experiencing.

For our customers it's not uncommon for us to recommend, sell and install "silk and steel" strings on some classicals. The classical will give you more width since you mentioned that you do fine with a classical guitar and silk and steel strings are lower tension than traditional steel string strings.

Not any classical can handle them so beware of that. But most inexpensive imports will do fine with silk and steel and they are a hell of a lot easier to change quickly too.... ;)

We will also on occasion use silk and steel on vintage instruments such as say a 1920's Martin.

The reason why traditional steel strings won't work well on a classical guitar is that classical guitars are braced for lower tension strings. But again most inexpensive imports will and do handle silk and steel strings fine.

It's find you a viable solution or the rest of us will have to turn in all of our traditional steel string guitars, have them destroyed, and then be relegated to playing necks that feel like 2 X 4's to us. So let's get you a viable solution! :D

Welcome to the OLF too!
Author:  Nick Royle [ Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Naive questions
Joe Beaver wrote:
Seems I have to forget a song I know before I can learn a new one.
"Like when I went on that wine tasting course and forgot how to drive!"

Copyright The Simpsons 1990-something
:)

... I'm always trying to remember songs I know I know but just can't think of.
Author:  Robert Lak [ Tue Mar 04, 2014 8:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Naive questions
You think this guy is going to play better with practice?

Attachment:
andre-holding-beer-can.jpg


The world has 7 billion people and i can't imagine they are all served by standard neck widths. It's just silly to even suggest it.

As the next evolutionary step in the species, us "Nova Sapiens" as superior beings simply have different needs than you old homo sapiens, "Homo Girliehandi"

s'all i'm sayin...
Author:  Joe Beaver [ Tue Mar 04, 2014 8:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Naive questions
Nick Said "Like when I went on that wine tasting course and forgot how to drive!"

Yes, that does have a familiar ring to it. Can't remember but it might have happened to me a time or two :)

Rob, I think André should have me make him a git tar. If there is one thing I understand it is big......
Author:  Robert Lak [ Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Naive questions
cphanna wrote:
Jon, I'm sure you can hire a luthier to build one for you.



Better yet, build yourself one! Plenty of classes out there.
Author:  Joe Beaver [ Tue Mar 04, 2014 11:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Naive questions
I think Jon is planning to build a guitar. He is in the design stages is my take on this thread.
Author:  nyazzip [ Tue Mar 04, 2014 11:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Naive questions
ok, maybe there are exceptions to the standard nut
Author:  Joe Beaver [ Wed Mar 05, 2014 2:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Naive questions
Jon,

By the way, congratulations on a great Olympics. Your countrymen were awesome !!!
Author:  SteveSmith [ Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Naive questions
Jon, my thumb to index span is 245mm. I am not a beginning player by any means but am no pro for sure although sometimes I play with them. My fingers are large enough that sometimes I have to play some of the chords a bit differently then the chord charts recommend; on the plus side I find it very easy to cover two strings with one finger tip pretty much anytime, anywhere. My preference is a 1 7/8" nut but I don't find a 1 3/4" nut to be that bad. I actually built an acoustic with a 2" nut thinking it would fit my hands better but it did not.

One thing I don't think I saw in the other responses is to make sure your guitar is set up properly. That can make a huge difference to a beginning player.
Author:  James Ringelspaugh [ Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Naive questions
Definitely one size does not fit all, and playing style makes a big difference too. I like a wider spacing for playing fingerstyle/classical pieces with odd or complex chord shapes, and like a narrow spacing for playing fast solo runs and the like. I have an old Gibson F25 which is a classical sized folk guitar with 2" string spacing that is great for Bach tunes but I'd feel like a fool trying to play bluegrass on it. Likewise fingerstyle stuff feels pretty cramped on my D-18 and my Strat but I can blaze right through certain fast melodic pieces on them.
Author:  jonbill [ Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Naive questions
@Joe Beaver. I'm actually American. But I've lived in Europe for almost 16 years and in the Netherlands for almost 14 of that. I think of myself as more a World citizen now.

Wow! That is really a lot of useful information. I did not expect so much. Thanks to everyone.

Yes, I am modifying my '76 Ovation Electric Custom Balladeer. Bought it because I was a big fan of Al Di Meola at the time and he played one. I'm looking for information to help me decide what to do and I'm doing a lot of reading. But I've been tinkering with guitars on and off since '68.

I'm a do-it-yourselfer from way back. I'm able to repurpose skills developed from lots of other things to do this and I really enjoy it. It's improvising tools on a budget that's the challenge. Maybe it's cheating but I figure it's easier to learn neck and fret work since the sides and back are nearly indestructible and I don't have to worry about damaging them too much.

I did also find a company called Seagull in Canada that makes guitars with a 1.9" nut.

I can see that good technique and muscle memory are crucial and some lessons are in order but what I'm looking at is pure engineering. My fingertips with good callouses have a certain radius and given that combined with the physical characteristics of the neck there are some things that are possible and some things not. The radius of those fingertips is just too big to not dampen adjacent strings in many chords. I don't see how any degree of good technique can change that.

That's how I look at it.

I'm one to not hesitate to try crazy things. I've also got a keyboard with a chromatic keyboard designed that has proved much easier to learn than a conventional keyboard.

But, of course, the downside is that if you learn on something unconventional you may have difficulty playing the conventional. In spite of that, I've still always tended to take the road less travelled.

Jon.

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Author:  Nick Royle [ Thu Mar 06, 2014 1:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Naive questions
You can always plan things so that the guitar can take a narrower neck if you find the wider one doesn't tick all the boxes.
Author:  jonbill [ Thu Mar 06, 2014 1:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Naive questions
Nick. Thanks. That's what I am doing. It's easier to make it narrower than wider. Thx.


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