I'm sure he's a very nice guy and knows what he is doing.
Don't we all...
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| Torrefaction (Red Spruce) http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=42961 |
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| Author: | RaymundH [ Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Torrefaction (Red Spruce) |
Does anyone have an idea who is supplying Torrified Spruce in Canada? Dana Bourgeois says on his site that they purchase it from a Canadian source that does the Torrefaction process for them. Thanks, Ray |
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| Author: | Alex Kleon [ Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torrefaction (Red Spruce) |
Might be able to get some direction from this company. http://www.torrefactionplus.ca/home.php Alex |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torrefaction (Red Spruce) |
I just read the facts on that stuff. Why would u want to use it in guitars? Says right there on the site it is not suggested for structural purposes. It will crumble |
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| Author: | Pmaj7 [ Fri Mar 14, 2014 6:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torrefaction (Red Spruce) |
Maybe they are just using baked tops. |
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| Author: | B. Howard [ Fri Mar 14, 2014 7:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torrefaction (Red Spruce) |
There are different degrees of processing, for guitars you want something less processed say about a C-20 to C-30. I believe Dana has his own wood done by those folks as they are some of the only ones in North America doing the process for lumber and not bio-fuel. |
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| Author: | Haans [ Fri Mar 14, 2014 7:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torrefaction (Red Spruce) |
Mike O'Melia wrote: I just read the facts on that stuff. Why would u want to use it in guitars? Says right there on the site it is not suggested for structural purposes. It will crumble That was my question too. My personal belief is these guys are so busy cranking out instruments that they can't afford to buy wood and let it sit in the shop for 5-10 years. They also revel in creating mystique. I've tried the dehydration/heat/hydration and could not perceive any difference tonally from a stickered and stored top. I sure would rather use tops from naturally split billets, sawn, air dried and shipped to me and stickered away for a number of years before using. Just another gimmick to me... |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torrefaction (Red Spruce) |
Martin has been playing with this for a while and started to use it. I have seen it and it is interesting. How good it will be long term is an open question. It does appear and have many traits of true old woods |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Sat Mar 15, 2014 6:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torrefaction (Red Spruce) |
This is similar to how they make charcoal.... It's also attempting to achieve some of the same things that is the reason that some of us bake our tops. Not sure I like the color darkening but I'm going to keep an open mind and have professional courtesy here, Dana is a very bright guy and knows what he is doing! |
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| Author: | Haans [ Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torrefaction (Red Spruce) |
I'm sure he's a very nice guy and knows what he is doing. Don't we all...
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torrefaction (Red Spruce) |
Baking and torrification are 2 different things. In the Torrification process , while heat is used it is done in a low oxygen environment. When you look at old wood , The properties changed and light no longer passes through and in T. Process the same transformation happens. The wood feels slightly lighter but the tap tone is for sure changed and also the light doesn't pass through. Baked tops are not heated long enough to make the changes in the cells but it does remove excess moisture. I also baked top and I use a press heated with a blanket. I can heat to the point of scorching the wood. In Torrification the heat is near the flashpoint and in backing you can't get the heat that high as it will combust. I have played a few torrified guitars and there is a difference. Martin had them out for a get together I was at in Jan and the few that were out were sold to members of the group. I can't say I like the color but they did have a tonal quality. Under Martin testing the engineers said the wood was much more stable then untreated wood. They are now torrifing back and side sets. |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torrefaction (Red Spruce) |
Torrification uses much higher heat too than when we bake our tops in our home ovens. So it's a different process all together and not likely to be something that we see very many small builders or hobbyists jigging up for in the near future. A concern that I do have is that the molecular structure of the wood is changed so very much that when you read about torrification the proponents disclaim that the treated wood should NOT be used for anything structural.... Well sheesh and pardon me please but I kind of sort of think that a top of a guitar is pretty structural in nature as intended. These days after this awful winter (is it over yet....   ) half my days are spent fixing cracks.... And when I do domes recover, dips disappear, neck angles relative to the top change so a guitar top is very much a structural component of the instrument.So I am wondering how the box structure will hold up in time. Could upper bout deformation, one cause of needs for neck resets, be increased by a weakening of a structural component of the instrument, the terrified top? Don't know but I'm going to be looking for it and listening too for how these instruments hold up over time. I have to agree with Hans that to me there is no substitute for letting the wood age and season naturally even though I bake (tops......  ) at times too.Interestingly enough also is the idea that in the world of manufacturing there have been some trends in the last decade or two that have dominated many industries. JIT (just in time inventory) where the idea is you don't have to go to the expense of procuring materials for the future and instead can shift this burden and expense to your lackey suppliers.... And "lean" which is also the concept of cost cutting, reducing inventories, etc again often shifting costs to suppliers. Perhaps torrification is really modern manufacturing continuing to proliferate the guitar making world? No need to squirrel away a stash, buy it torrified when you need it! I suspect though that there are way too many traditionalists in the market, the guitar market and they may push back in time and not like this diversion from tradition. It will be interesting to watch. So who's next to embrace the bleeding edge? 
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torrefaction (Red Spruce) |
I would be if I could find some torrefied tops. All the available info seems to revolve around decking/siding etc. There are different degrees of torrefaction, and we don't specifically know what has been done to these tops or what degree it's been taken to. So to dismiss it out of hand because some website says not to use their torrefied deck planks for joists is possibly not allowing something useful to us to be considered. I myself have an open mind towards it, and think it pretty likely that neither Dana or the Martin peeps are stupid. They also probably have some experience determining if wood is suitable to their needs or not. Juries out for me until I get some in my hot little hands for actual data testing. John, any chance you can get some through your Martin contacts, or find out who the top-specific supplier is? |
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| Author: | James Ringelspaugh [ Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torrefaction (Red Spruce) |
I poked around some scientific papers on heat treating softwoods a while back and found that there's good research showing that dimensional stability is better afterwards, but I also found that bending strength and shear strength along the grain is reduced. I don't think bending strength is a real concern for our purposes but a loss of shear strength || to the grain seems to me might be a big deal for tops around the fretboard extension and the bridge. At temps ~ 200F or where most folks bake tops the difference was very small but increased considerably with increased temps. IIRC pine or spruce starts to darken at 200C; I'm not familiar with the torrefaction process but if the temps are high enough to discolor the wood I'd be wary... I'd want to see some hard strength testing data before building with it. Of course I say this as devil's advocate... if Dana Bourgeois is using this process I'd bet he's looked into it. |
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| Author: | Haans [ Sat Mar 15, 2014 12:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torrefaction (Red Spruce) |
You know, perhaps these guys have looked into it and even find a use. Big BUT, I don't have the time or $$$ to get into all that. Yes, Martin may have a guitar or two that sound good torforizimified, but they charge everybody who buys a Martin for their "research". Oh, and advertising/hype... Wood naturally gets stiffer with age, and I prefer to let it do it's thing rather than give it to the Space Station to heat in no oxygen to past it's exploding temp. You may think me a luddite, but most of us small builders don't have the time, or resources to venture into every newfangled thing that some "nice guy" with a lot of knowledge (and $$$) has played with. Fortunately, I have enough wood stashed that I don't have to worry about JIT, suppliers, any of it. I suspect most small builders live that way. No one has found a better way to get good tone out of an instrument beyond just playing it for 60 years. Maybe we could start a group buy from Martin. 
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| Author: | Hesh [ Sat Mar 15, 2014 12:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torrefaction (Red Spruce) |
Good post Hans - you feeling OK? I was thinking that torrification may be a solution looking for a problem.... More specifically what is the goal here? If the goal is that vintage vibe that short of Han's 60 years of playing can get you, ok, does it work? If the goal here is an attempt at reducing or even eventually eliminating the need for instrument manufacturers to stock their stashes at least several years in advance of production.... who's really benefiting especially when and if the structural integrity of the wood is not enhanced but diminished. It will also be interesting, at least to me, if where Martin employes torrified tops the warranties are different than for all other products. I'm keeping an open mind too but you won't see me chomping at the bit to source a test top. That's what you guys are for.... What was that old commercial, Let Mikey try it, he'll eat anything.....
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Sat Mar 15, 2014 1:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torrefaction (Red Spruce) |
I'll be Mikey any day. If anyone can find a torrefied top, let me know. Dana has been uncommunicative about selling some. Paging Dr. John... |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Sat Mar 15, 2014 3:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torrefaction (Red Spruce) |
If you really want to try it find a metal box of the right size with an air tight lid, pack it as full of tops (and filler wood if necessary) as it will hold and pop it in the oven at 400 degrees F for a few hours. That will probably get you close, especially if you first bake it to get it down to zero percent moisture. |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torrefaction (Red Spruce) |
Torrification is done in an oxygen free environment so baking in any container in an oven is not the same process. I also would be very reluctant to advise anyone to take an oven to 400F with a combustable in it. I understand that 400F is still below the ignition point for spruce but I would ask you how much do you trust the thermostat on a consumer grade oven of all manner of age, brand, and condition. Wood can start to burn at only 450F with the right conditions... A 12% error on your oven thermostat and you just set your house on fire... |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torrefaction (Red Spruce) |
I wouldn't try it at home either. Hence why I would like to just buy a blerdy piece... |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torrefaction (Red Spruce) |
If you have an air tight container and you pack it full of material the amount of oxygen will be pretty limited for combustion to occur. Commercially done they seem to indicate a low oxygen rather than no oxygen environment. Ovens can be notoriously off temperature , so a good thermometer and a strong sense of self would be in order. Don't whine if you burn your house down. 
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| Author: | Eric Reid [ Sun Mar 16, 2014 1:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torrefaction (Red Spruce) |
Not a whole lot of fire danger to this experiment. Ovens contain fires pretty well. (Try my recipe for "forgotten pork roast".) Easy enough too, to weld up a steel box with a gasket on the door, and a couple of valves. Load the wood, purge with Argon (or CO2, or Helium), and bake to golden brown. A convection oven would help with even heat. A thermometer in the box might be a good idea, perhaps a tempered glass window, too (or isinglass for us luddites). I haven't done any of this, and I'm not likely to unless Haans would like to trade me for a few of his best split billet, shop-aged spruce tops. |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Sun Mar 16, 2014 1:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torrefaction (Red Spruce) |
I'd like to just buy a top... |
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| Author: | John Arnold [ Sun Mar 16, 2014 2:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torrefaction (Red Spruce) |
Quote: If the goal here is an attempt at reducing or even eventually eliminating the need for instrument manufacturers to stock their stashes at least several years in advance of production... Few of them do that now. Many of the manufacturers I have sold red spruce to kiln dry it all....and often use it within a year. IMHO, that is why newly-made guitars using that formula have problems. |
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| Author: | Haans [ Sun Mar 16, 2014 6:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torrefaction (Red Spruce) |
John Arnold wrote: Quote: If the goal here is an attempt at reducing or even eventually eliminating the need for instrument manufacturers to stock their stashes at least several years in advance of production... Few of them do that now. Many of the manufacturers I have sold red spruce to kiln dry it all....and often use it within a year. IMHO, that is why newly-made guitars using that formula have problems. John, I'd call that kill-n drying... A lot of my stash is "Ted wood". I toured his garage many years ago. Hesh wrote: Good post Hans - you feeling OK? I was thinking that torrification may be a solution looking for a problem.... More specifically what is the goal here? If the goal is that vintage vibe that short of Han's 60 years of playing can get you, ok, does it work? What was that old commercial, Let Mikey try it, he'll eat anything..... Feelin' OK, Hesh. It's all relative at this age... Excellent question. What is the goal here... The goal is for large companies to gain something by a new, unproven technology while at the same time, reducing the need to have large stockpiles of wood actually aging itself. Some may think this techie newfangled way of doing things will bring about a revolution in "processing" tonewood, but I can see no good in it. It will only make harvesting more lucrative and demand go up. Folks that rush to buy it will only make it more popular and "reverence" for wood will be reduced to zero. Who cares? I do. Folks thinking that having this wood will make them better builders won't learn a thing. That is the point. Storing all that good tonewood lets it age while you learn how to use it. It builds a personal reverence. Every time you pick up a piece of that stashed tonewood, you learn to think about it. You think hard because you have had it for years and know it has been sitting there waiting for this moment. The moment when you know what to do with it, and have enough confidence to use it. Companies are more interested in jamming more production and reducing costs. Ideally, that means keeping no stock and finding new gimmicks to make the Holy Grail guitar. If it does work, you can bet suppliers will jump on the bandwagon, hailing the new technology. They will also charge a small fortune for it. This is a forum for new, budding builders to learn. Here is the biggest learning tool some us old timers can impart to you...LEARN. Take the time to do that and while you are at it, stash some wood. It will be ready for you when you are ready for it. Nothing beats the old fashioned way. |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Sun Mar 16, 2014 7:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torrefaction (Red Spruce) |
Haans wrote: Folks thinking that having this wood will make them better builders won't learn a thing. That is the point. Storing all that good tonewood lets it age while you learn how to use it. It builds a personal reverence. Every time you pick up a piece of that stashed tonewood, you learn to think about it. You think hard because you have had it for years and know it has been sitting there waiting for this moment. The moment when you know what to do with it, and have enough confidence to use it. Companies are more interested in jamming more production and reducing costs. Ideally, that means keeping no stock and finding new gimmicks to make the Holy Grail guitar. If it does work, you can bet suppliers will jump on the bandwagon, hailing the new technology. They will also charge a small fortune for it. This is a forum for new, budding builders to learn. Here is the biggest learning tool some us old timers can impart to you...LEARN. Take the time to do that and while you are at it, stash some wood. It will be ready for you when you are ready for it. Nothing beats the old fashioned way. This is one of the very best posts that I have ever read on the OLF! Please take note of it folks - Hans nailed it in my view!!!!! ![[:Y:]](./images/smilies/smiley20.gif "Thumbs Up") One of the differences between a guitar builder and a Luthier may be the "personal reverence" that Hans describes. Very well said! |
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