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| Sanded Away My Lining http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=43141 |
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| Author: | LarryH [ Fri Apr 04, 2014 4:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Sanded Away My Lining |
 .. I was adjusting a top angle or a depth or..I don't really remember but after I glued on the top I noticed I had sanded almost all my lining away. It started out with 2 layers about .090 thick each by about 5/16" deep and now I've got about 1/8 - 3/16" of depth left. The back is not glued on so I have plenty of room to work and suppose I could try and glue some more lining on but wondered if there might be another idea out there to solve the issue?
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| Author: | phil [ Fri Apr 04, 2014 4:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanded Away My Lining |
For sake of its strength, I'll bet this will be fine. It'll just look funky to some repair person someday down the road. If you're worried about strength I guess you could chisel away the lining from the UTB to the neck block and replace it with tentalones. That too would look funky to a repair person. But it would be stronger. |
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| Author: | wbergman [ Fri Apr 04, 2014 4:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanded Away My Lining |
My vote is do nothing. |
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| Author: | Dave Fifield [ Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanded Away My Lining |
This will become an issue when you come to route the outside for the bindings/purfling! You need sufficient lining height to allow for the channel for the binding/purfling - the lining is the only thing that holds the sides to the top/back at that time. Thus, you need to fix this before moving on. If it were my mistake, I'd carefully chisel off all the linings, sand/clean up the inside edge of the side, and then glue on new full-height linings. YMMV. Cheers, Dave F. |
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| Author: | EddieLee [ Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanded Away My Lining |
I mostly agree with Dave. I would be very worried about routing the binding channel and have the top come off. Now I am a 1 guitar newby so take this for what it is worth. I would be tempted to take the top off, remove the lining and start fresh. Interested to see what other ideas come up. |
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| Author: | jshelton [ Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanded Away My Lining |
Just manufacture your bindings to a size that will be less than the height of the linings plus the thickness of the top and it will be fine. |
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| Author: | LarryH [ Fri Apr 04, 2014 6:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanded Away My Lining |
Thanks for the input. The concern is, as mentioned, routing the binding/purfling channel and going straight through the side and taking the top off in the process.. Thought about making a very thin/low binding and may go that route. Adding additional lining will be lot harder than I originally thought. Will tackle it one way or the other in the morning. |
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| Author: | cphanna [ Fri Apr 04, 2014 6:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanded Away My Lining |
I think Dave Fifield has given you the best preliminary input. But, as you have already considered the binding rout issue, I think you can assess various options (thinner binding, no binding, etc. etc.). In the end, you might be better off to bite the bullet and install new bindings in the problem areas right now, so that you don't have to compromise on your binding scheme later. Whatever you decide to do, best of luck, and please let us know how you resolve this issue. Patrick |
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| Author: | DennisK [ Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanded Away My Lining |
phil wrote: If you're worried about strength I guess you could chisel away the lining from the UTB to the neck block and replace it with tentalones. That too would look funky to a repair person. But it would be stronger. That's what I'd do. |
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| Author: | johnparchem [ Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanded Away My Lining |
Given that you have no bindings, you may be better to just pull the top off, rather then trying to remove the linings with the top on. You will have way better access and angles to work with. A bit of heat a hot putty knife ... |
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| Author: | Terence Kennedy [ Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanded Away My Lining |
You need as much strength as you can get in that area to prevent head block rotation, especially if you plan a double tenon neck attachment. Better fix that one. I like the idea of pulling the top. Heck you get to learn a new skill. If not that, tentalones for sure. |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Sat Apr 05, 2014 6:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanded Away My Lining |
You could use a thin binding that wouldn't cut all the way through the side material, add some thickness visually by laminating the same binding material against it on the purfling ledge. Another possibility would be to add binding that is proud of the ribs similar to the Weymann Jimmie Rogers guitar that John Arnold built some copies of. That could turn your mistake into a "feature". There is a good article about them online from the Fretboard journal . |
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| Author: | Haans [ Sat Apr 05, 2014 6:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanded Away My Lining |
DennisK wrote: phil wrote: If you're worried about strength I guess you could chisel away the lining from the UTB to the neck block and replace it with tentalones. That too would look funky to a repair person. But it would be stronger. That's what I'd do. Ditto, and what Terry said... Always sand your ribs without kerfing before installing it. That way you have very little to take off the purfling after. |
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| Author: | Pat Hawley [ Sat Apr 05, 2014 10:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanded Away My Lining |
I have to side with the "do nothing" camp. There's no reason that your bindings have to be much deeper than the thickness of your top and you know your top is above your linings. Appearance wise, they'll look fine. Just remember to profile sand your sides before (and after) installing the linings in future. Pat |
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| Author: | Frank Ford [ Sat Apr 05, 2014 9:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanded Away My Lining |
With linings that short, you definitely run the risk of having serious weakness at the top/side joint after binding and purfling. Now is a dandy opportunity to replace the linings in the affected area without actually taking things apart. You can carefully chop out sections, just a few inches at a time and replace them with nice tall kerfed linings so you can proceed with the rest of the building process with confidence. If you worry about what the interior of the top edge will look like, you can replace the entire lining. Sure, it's "work" but nobody should expect this luthier stuff to be too easy! Nothing worse than the sinking feeling you get when you realize that if you'd only sucked it up and really fixed things early on. I know that feeling well myself. . . |
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| Author: | theguitarwhisperer [ Sat Apr 05, 2014 10:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanded Away My Lining |
Frank Ford wrote: With linings that short, you definitely run the risk of having serious weakness at the top/side joint after binding and purfling. Now is a dandy opportunity to replace the linings in the affected area without actually taking things apart. You can carefully chop out sections, just a few inches at a time and replace them with nice tall kerfed linings so you can proceed with the rest of the building process with confidence. If you worry about what the interior of the top edge will look like, you can replace the entire lining. Sure, it's "work" but nobody should expect this luthier stuff to be too easy! Nothing worse than the sinking feeling you get when you realize that if you'd only sucked it up and really fixed things early on. I know that feeling well myself. . . Exactly! Do it right. At this point it's a simple fix, just a little extra work. Preferable I think to an even bigger problem down the road. Part of being a luthier. |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Sun Apr 06, 2014 7:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanded Away My Lining |
Lining and kerfing are there to allow a glue surface area. I agree with Frank Ford and the others, You made a mistake and you need to address it now as later you will have to address it on a finish instrument. To avoid this in the future do your set up on the sides first to get it close , then apply the lining or kerfing so you know where the end line will fall out to and then apply the lining or kerfing , and this allows the best glue surface area. Glue surface area is where you gain the strength. Guitar building is about wood joinery and when you make a mistake you have to learn to address those that are critical to structure. |
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| Author: | James Ringelspaugh [ Sun Apr 06, 2014 9:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanded Away My Lining |
Around the neck join things need to be as strong and stiff as possible. Fix it. |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Sun Apr 06, 2014 11:03 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanded Away My Lining |
Larry buddy I have to agree with those in favor of augmenting or replacing the binding from the UTB forward. When I say augmenting what I have in mind is this looks like reversed kerfed linings to me, is this correct? If so you could make some linings that are the inverse of the reversed kerfed linings that you used and more specifically the rounded edge of the linings would be an exact match as to the radius only concave. The idea is to snug these puppies over (as oriented in the pic) the existing linings having that exact radius match for snug fit. The height could be tapered away as the original linings get taller out toward the UTB. If done well it would not look funny to some repair person who looks inside. Getting in there with a mirror and a little, mini-chisel and you could pop the glue beads from squeeze-out off for a more precise fit. Installation since the box is closed could be done with rare earth magnets spaced every 2" or so being careful to not let them jump and bite ya.... Now let's talk about avoiding having this happen to anyone else since I didn't see any mention of this earlier in the thread. If you sand the radius in the dish into the rim PRIOR to installing the kerfed linings this would not have happened. There is also the additional benefit which is huge to me of when only dish sanding the radius into the rim PRIOR to installing the kerfed linings you will: 1) Have complete control over the lining height when all is said and done giving the added benefit of the strength of all of the lining material. 2) Once the radius in imparted you may notice that you did it in record time. That's right, not having to sand through the linings too just reduced your work load by perhaps half! 3) Once the radius is on the rim now install the kerfed linings approx 1/16" proud of the rim and then dish sand again. This time we are also imparting the radius to the kerfed linings and we left them proud so that the entire surface area of the linings will have the desired radius. So dish sanding is a two part operation in respect to how I am suggesting that you could do this in the future. First the rim is sanded without linings and then once the linings are installed the rim is sanded again and the upper bout is then flattened too (if that's your bag). Much less work, much taller bindings, and more time to watch basketball.... 
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Sun Apr 06, 2014 11:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanded Away My Lining |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrgRKKsxL-M Like Hesh I also do this as a 2 part operation so that I get the optimum glue surface . This helps you get the best result in the end. Details are what you make them. When it comes down to it , it is your guitar but the craftsmanship will say a lot about your skill. A mistake is when you know it and do nothing , a learning experience is when you see something wrong and do what you need to make it right. In that case it isn't a mistake , it becomes a learning experience. |
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| Author: | LarryH [ Mon Apr 07, 2014 9:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanded Away My Lining |
Thanks so much for all the help and suggestions. I have done this process numerous times with nothing like this occurring in the past. Not sure why those linings ended up so thin. I always profile and radius sand the sides before the linings go on but somehow I needed to get the neck/fretboard angle adjusted maybe? Can't remember what the order of events was but it won't happen again and I'm fairly confident I can manage that aspect. Also the bottom is not glued on yet as I glue my tops on first so I have plenty of access to the area if I decide to remove/replace those linings, which are 2 piece solid mahogany BTW. I was looking at how narrow the binding would have to be to stay clear of routing past the lining and it doesn't look like the worst option but I'm still a little ways off from having to decide as I have a couple more gits under construction. Again thank so much for all the help and guidance. |
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| Author: | LarryH [ Mon Apr 07, 2014 9:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanded Away My Lining |
bluescreek wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrgRKKsxL-M Like Hesh I also do this as a 2 part operation so that I get the optimum glue surface . This helps you get the best result in the end. Details are what you make them. When it comes down to it , it is your guitar but the craftsmanship will say a lot about your skill. A mistake is when you know it and do nothing , a learning experience is when you see something wrong and do what you need to make it right. In that case it isn't a mistake , it becomes a learning experience. Thanks for the video John, very helpful. |
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| Author: | Frank Ford [ Mon Apr 07, 2014 10:08 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanded Away My Lining |
A quick point of clarification: When I mentioned that linings that small would create an area of serious weakness, I did not mean to imply that the joint would fail in normal use. It's when an area like that gets a sharp blow to the binding that things spring apart - and, trust me, they do spring apart when hit. Some production instruments are made with little or no lining contact area, and we often have to reglue tops and backs when they get relatively minor bumps. |
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| Author: | LarryH [ Mon Apr 07, 2014 10:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanded Away My Lining |
Thank You Frank - very HELPFUL. |
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| Author: | theguitarwhisperer [ Mon Apr 07, 2014 10:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanded Away My Lining |
Frank Ford wrote: A quick point of clarification: When I mentioned that linings that small would create an area of serious weakness, I did not mean to imply that the joint would fail in normal use. It's when an area like that gets a sharp blow to the binding that things spring apart - and, trust me, they do spring apart when hit. Some production instruments are made with little or no lining contact area, and we often have to reglue tops and backs when they get relatively minor bumps. I just reglued an inexpensive Martin in fact that had sustained a minor blow, while in the case, and a whole quadrant blew apart. It was quite the spectacle. |
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