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Questions for resaw experts....
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Author:  meddlingfool [ Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Questions for resaw experts....
Hi Folks,

I have some questions about re sawing. I'd like to know what the minimum dimensions required are. For instance, can you start with 4/4 wood? It seems you should be able to, as inevitably you'd be doing your final cut on a piece around 1/2" thickness or a bit less?

As a general rule, how many pieces per inch thickness is the yield? How many sets can you cut before the blade wears out?

Is it worth it to even bother?

As a percentage, what are the cost savings to doing it yourself? Can you reduce the per set cost by 25%? 50%?

Anyway, if anyone can shed a bit of light on this it would be appreciated...
Author:  klooker [ Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Questions for resaw experts....
I'm no expert, but I'd say it depends. duh

I set up a spreadsheet, using a kerf of 0.06", theoretically you'll get:
3/4" => 4 slices 0.1425 each
7/8" => 4 slices 0.1738 each

I've gotten 4 slices from a 3/4" board but I've also ruined wood trying. Everything has to be running perfectly - proper blade tension, proper fence alignment for drift, sharp blade. Going to a carbide Woodmaster has made a ton of difference. I have a 36" saw & the blade costs close to $180 but it lasts a very long time. Besides being carbide, the 19' 6" length spreads the wear across more teeth which also helps. Having a good resaw fence like the Laguna $$$ also helps because it allows you to make precise, repeatable adjustments.

So to answer your questions, it is less expensive, assuming you already have the machinery or you are going to saw enough sets to recover the cost of the equipment.

The other issue is finding suitable boards.

Kevin Looker

Edit:
Take the bf price and do the math to compute the savings.
Author:  meddlingfool [ Wed Apr 09, 2014 4:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Questions for resaw experts....
I think that it is a massive savings if you can get good yield. I need a better saw, but I need a better saw anyway...
Author:  Michael.N. [ Wed Apr 09, 2014 4:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Questions for resaw experts....
You need to factor in the time spent resawing. Time spent resawing is also time away from construction, so you need to factor that into the costings.
For myself it's simply not worth going to the cost of buying a much larger Bandsaw (the blades and better extraction), plus I would have to go to the trouble of tracking down suitable timber. There is almost certainly going to be more waste over buying ready cut sets. It's simply easier for me to phone my supplier and ask him for the cut/type of wood that I'm after.
Author:  Kelby [ Wed Apr 09, 2014 5:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Questions for resaw experts....
It's definitely worth it to resaw your own.

Here are a couple of random resawing thoughts.

1) Having a well-tuned saw makes all the difference. I have an 18" Laguna with a Driftmaster fence and a resaw king blade. I get very good results. If you have a lesser saw, you will get a lesser yield.

2) No matter how good your saw is, wood warps when you resaw it. Which means you either need to plane the board between each cut or you need to make your slices thick enough that you can get rid of the warp and blade marks on both sides at the thickenss sander.

3) I'm pretty good at resawing, but I find I waste more wood than I save when I try to maximize the yield by cutting the slices as close as possible to the finished thickness. There are simply too many places where things will be less than perfect. And when you get even one slice just a little to thin in even one spot, the piece is ruined, and so is the now-orphaned piece that was going to match it. I find the better approach is to purchase 8/4 material and cut six slices that are each just under 3/16", planing the board between each cut so that each slice has one clean face and you only have to sand one side of each piece at the thickness sander after resawing. With this approach I can get 3 bookmatched pairs out of an 8/4 board 100% of the time. There's nothing wrong with getting 3 pairs out of an 8/4 board.
Author:  Kelby [ Wed Apr 09, 2014 5:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Questions for resaw experts....
I also agree with Michael that, if your only goal here is to save money, then you would have to build a lot of guitars before you would save enough money resawing to pay for the bandsaw and the value of the time you spend resawing. But if your only goal is to save money, then why are you building guitars in the first place? Get a real job, buy a Martin, and use all the money you save doing something fun!

Assuming you are a rationale person, then you aren't doing this just for the money. You are doing this because it's fun. If a new tool can help you have fun, and if you can partially offset the cost of the tool by saving some money on materials, then that tool is a good purchase. I would say a good bandsaw falls into that category. For a guitar builder, a good bandsaw probably fits into that category more than almost any other tool.
Author:  bluescreek [ Wed Apr 09, 2014 7:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Questions for resaw experts....
Best advice is this
Trying to be cute and getting that extra set may cost you more.
Allow for kerf clean up and drift.
Author:  Clay S. [ Wed Apr 09, 2014 7:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Questions for resaw experts....
Using the "nail in kerf" method I've gotten 4 slices from a 3/4 inch board. No expensive saw or blade, but slightly more time involved cutting the pieces. The blade won't last like a carbide tipped blade, but a 1/4 inch blade is relatively cheap and can stay on the saw for normal work.
Is resawing worth it? It all depends on how much you like searching for suitable material and actually like sawing wood. For an amateur it can be great fun, for a professional it might be a welcome change of routine, or a big time sink.
I resaw boards, buy presawn sets, and laminate veneers, according to what is available.
Author:  Alex Kleon [ Wed Apr 09, 2014 7:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Questions for resaw experts....
I am no body of knowledge when it comes to the band saw. I used one for the first time in over twenty years this passed weekend, but there can be saving to be had processing your own wood. There is usually a 75-100% markup on dressed lumber over rough, but visual flaws in dressed are more apparent. Processing yourself gives you more quality control and insight into the stability and workability of a piece of wood. Buying the tools to do the work can be pricey, though.

Alex
Author:  Haans [ Wed Apr 09, 2014 7:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Questions for resaw experts....
I've sawn up enough to say that at times the board you have may be throw away...badly dried, full of cracks, warps like crazy, twists up in a pretzel. So if it's cost you are after, add that in. If I can get 2 sets out of a 5/4 board, I'm happy. If I can get 2 sets out of a 4/4 board, I'm happy.
Author:  cphanna [ Wed Apr 09, 2014 7:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Questions for resaw experts....
As has been suggested, you must factor in the cost of a good bandsaw and a good resaw blade. In most cases, this will not be cheap. However, the bandsaw is one of the most useful power tools in the shop. I'd say this: If you can justify a good bandsaw for lots and lots of other purposes, then, by all means, do some of your own resawing with it.

Patrick
Author:  DannyV [ Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Questions for resaw experts....
It depends on the blade you saw with. I have a Resaw King that I use when I want the best yield and the best I have done is 4 slices out of a 11/16 board. 1" boards will easily produce 4 slices. FWIW. I was just in PJ White. Scored a very beautiful board of Ribbon Sapale. Really nice. It was 10" x 14'. Knot free and all very useable. It will yield 8 sets. The board was $80 plus tax............ I'm not great at math but I'd say it works for me! If you like, find the wood. I'll resaw it and take a set or 2 and pay the brd ft price. I do get in to town from time to time.

And........ clean up your yard would ya. What do your neighbours think.

Cheerio,
Danny
Author:  meddlingfool [ Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Questions for resaw experts....
My neighbors know not to mess with crazy...;)

Actually, asides from the occasional all night punk rock in the basement til dawn party I'm an excellent neighbor.

Let's look at a price breakdown.

6x36x2" piece for sides is 3 BF

9x24x2" for back is 3 BF (we'll factor wastage in later)

So we're at 6 BF cost, at 8.40 BF for 8/4 SA mahogany. 8.40x 6= 50.40 plus 12% tax = 56.50 material costs. So, even getting only three slices per inch, that yields 6 sets for 56.50, that gives 9.40 a set. Ok, let's say we waste as much as we keep, cost per set is really double, 18.80 a set. Since Mh is 75$ a set here plus shipping, that's a savings of 56.20 a set. Or somewhere thereabouts.

I feel confident that if others can get 4 slices per inch, so can I, which makes it even better. And since I plan on getting a better saw anyway, as the 1hp general is irrigating the flan out of me anyway by being underpowered, I think it's a no brainer....

I would like to know from people who have done this before, what is a reasonable cost to associate with this task on a per set basis? 30 minutes? 15?

Now, since I can get planks of nearly all the woods I use, if I can save 50 bucks a set, at 6-8 guitars a month that's 3-400$, nothing to take lightly at all.

That would pay for the saw in less than a year....
Author:  Michael.N. [ Thu Apr 10, 2014 2:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Questions for resaw experts....
6 - 8 Guitars per month? You can sell that many?
Author:  meddlingfool [ Thu Apr 10, 2014 3:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Questions for resaw experts....
This month..ask me next month...:)
Author:  Clay S. [ Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Questions for resaw experts....
6 inch sides you can resaw on a 10 inch tablesaw by cutting full depth of the blade, flipping the board and cutting again. They go pretty quickly. Using the nail in kerf method you can cut a back set (2 pcs) in about 10 - 15 minutes without breaking a sweat. Your 1hp general bandsaw would work fine for this. You might try using the tools you have to see how well you like resawing and use the "savings" you actually generate towards the eventual purchase of a bigger saw. Then again, you might find you won't need one for what you want to resaw.
Author:  LarryH [ Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Questions for resaw experts....
I found a couple great pieces of wood for backs, sides and tops and decided to invest in a larger band saw which I needed anyway because all I had was a Delta 10". I found a Jet 18" for $800.00, bought a Wood Slicer blade from Highland wood working and built a fence for re-sawing.

The wood was Sapele and Western Red Cedar so I didn't really need a carbide tipped blade.

Tried to push the cuts too thin ONCE then learned it's better to err on the thicker side. Wasn't that easy with the first couple cuts then I learned the saw a little better and it went OK. Fence was home built and worked just OK. I adjusted the fence for drift as best i could but was pretty much a rookie when first beginning.

The Sapele was just under $50 and I got 3 full backs/side sets and extra sides. viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=42631&hilit=sapele

The Cedar was around $100 and I got 8 tops.

Eventually the savings will pay for the saw but I really needed the saw anyway for tougher jobs the 10" Delta would struggle through.

The great thing for me was to be able find a piece of wood at the local lumber store and not wonder what it would be like to use for a guitar. Instead take it home and see exactly what it would be like to use in a guitar. I've still got the Wood Slicer and it will cut much more Sapele and WRC but I'm sure I'll get a Woodmaster CT for any future tougher jobs that require a better blade.

EDIT: I just re-read the OP title and inadvertently answered - Sorry I'm certainly no re-saw expert.
Author:  meddlingfool [ Thu Apr 10, 2014 11:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Questions for resaw experts....
Actually Larry that was very useful. I shouldn't have put expert in the thread title, come to think of it.
Author:  Don Williams [ Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Questions for resaw experts....
The saw, saw setup, and blade will drive your results, depending of course on the material you are cutting. I've been able to get some really great, thin, even slices off my 16" Laguna LT16HD (cocobolo - as Lance K can attest) using the equivalent of the Woodslicer, the Bladerunner from Iturra Design. Costs 25% less, but the same blade. I believe it has a .032" kerf or thereabouts.
As others have mentioned, you have to account (most of the time) for dressing the board between slices, since as soon as you slice into it, any stresses that may be/are in there will come out in the form of cupping or twisting, or both!

Drift - I have literally "Never" had to adjust my fence for drift on this saw. The reasons I feel are due to the tire geometry and how consistently I center the blade on the wheels. The wheels/tires are basically flat with this saw, not heavily arched like on many smaller saws. So the result is the blade tends to run more true, so less movement left or right in relation to the fence. Start the blade parallel, get the tension right, and it pretty much stays that way. Adding to that, the design of their guide blocks really helps also. They contact virtually the whole width of the blade except for the teeth and gullet, so there's very little tendency to twist, or rather stated, the tendency to twist is negated pretty well with these guides.

The blade also needs to be sharp if you're going to tackle hardwoods, or anything you really value highly. Don't try to get by with a slightly dull blade as you will only ruin the wood. Keep them clean and free of build-up on the sides of the teeth. And lastly---as John said, don't try to get cute and get that extra set. More than likely, you're going to walk away with less rather than more. Been there.
Author:  jshelton [ Thu Apr 10, 2014 1:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Questions for resaw experts....
Nobody has mentioned the real value of having your own resaw. With a little time spent on setup to get the angle right you can cut billets in a radial pattern so every panel is perfectly quartered.
Author:  James Ringelspaugh [ Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Questions for resaw experts....
If you enjoy the process and have some $ to invest in it, then go for it; if not then it's probably best to forget it. It will take you longer to recoup your costs then you think because:
-You will not generally find boards perfectly sized for back and side sets in most woods, so there is loss there.
-You will get boards that look great but have tension in them and will come off the saw weird and will be unusable.
-You will have boards that look great but have hidden knots or other defects inside.
-You will lose wood to a variety of issues as you learn your saw and get it (and your process) set up.

With a well tuned 18" saw with a carbide blade I generally get 4 slices per inch for backs and 5 for sides... plus or minus 1 depending on how the board is behaving, or minus everything if the board is full of tension. I generally estimate 2 board feet per set if the wood is good. Time really depends on the wood... if it's easy and behaving well I can mill full sets in 10-15 minutes, or if things are very difficult it can take 30-45 minutes per set or more. Also consider you'll need more than a good bandsaw... you'll need a very well tuned jointer, planer, and likely a thickness sander as well. Also you'll need space to store wood, both rough and sawn... a lot of the best wood is green so you'll need to learn to store and dry it properly which is a whole other discussion and learning curve.

That's my experience anyway. It's a lot of work but I really enjoy the process of seeking out and resawing wood so it's been very well worth it for me.
Author:  Joe Beaver [ Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Questions for resaw experts....
No expert either but what Kevin, John and the others have said is so true. "Allow for kerf clean up and drift" is the answer.

How much you have to allow for that depends on your saw, the blade you are using, your setup and how 'good' you are at resawing.

No one can answer that for you. Only you with wood in your hands and the saw running.
Author:  meddlingfool [ Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Questions for resaw experts....
Well, only one way to find out...
Author:  meddlingfool [ Thu Apr 10, 2014 5:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Questions for resaw experts....
As for warpage and cupping etc...

I've seen thousands of mahogany sets cut at the shop, and there was very very little trouble with that...

Maybe mahogany is easy?
Author:  rlrhett [ Thu Apr 10, 2014 5:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Questions for resaw experts....
I'm still stuck on the six to eight guitars a month business!! I wish I had even the slightest notion on how you pull that off.

Where do you find eight people a month who are willing to buy an expensive custom made acoustic guitar from a relatively unknown luthier? (No offense, unless you are secretly Charles Fox or Irwin Symogi prowling this board everyone here is essentially an unknown luthier ;-) ). Even if i had the market, I could never build even half as many guitars!


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