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Brand name?
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Author:  sdsollod [ Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Brand name?
Is it necessary to have a legal brand name if you want to start selling guitars? That costs thousands of dollars... I've been told that potential buyers want to see a website to find more information on the builder and to give you more credibility. It looks like just getting a domain name takes some research. I'd like to just call my website sollodguitars.com. I haven't checked yet to see that's available. ...it is my name for heaven's sake... Any thoughts on all this?
Thanks,
Steve
Author:  Chris Pile [ Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Brand name?
Is it necessary?
No.
I never kept a count of the instruments I've built through the decades, and not a one had a brand name on it.
I just never felt the need to put one on them.
I dang sure got paid, though....
Author:  cphanna [ Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Brand name?
Well, the short answer is "no". Putting your name on a guitar doesn't have to cost a thing. It only costs your effort to make a label and maybe a headstock inlay. With some luck, and with the interest of some local people who like your work, you can start selling a few guitars if your products satisfy your market. I build as a hobby, but I have a short list of friends who would buy any instrument I care to sell. I have not yet chosen to sell, and if I do, I might find that my market has evaporated. That could happen. Markets are fickle.

I think you need to have a talk with yourself and set some goals. Do you aspire to a wider market? Regional? Nation wide?

I think the wiser answer is: Yes, you need to establish a brand identity. There are many things you need to consider along the way. Get your instruments into the hands of some players who will tell their friends about you. Show your instruments in trade shows. Get your instruments into some favorably minded music stores if you can. Carry them all over the territory and show them until you can do those things. Yes, you need a website, but don't be deluded into thinking that a website alone will establish you. You must have an identity among the public and they must have a curiosity about your product that will make them search out your website. Advertising can steer people to your website, but it is expensive. Social media MIGHT steer people to your website, but it is expensive in terms of your time. Even if you get that far, there is no guaranty that your website will seal the deal. It must be first rate insofar as it clearly shows your products, itemizes the details you are featuring, states pricing, your product guarantees, and so on. An amateurish website will imply that you make amateurish guitars, so you don't want to give that impression. You must be fastidious about talking phone calls and emails daily, inviting people to come and see and play your instruments, etc. etc. etc. etc. You must create a push on one end, by showing your instruments everywhere you can, and a pull by getting your instruments into other player's hands so that people will see them, hear them, etc., and a demand will start to grow.

We are talking basic marketing here, and I am telling you the general truth. But, all that said, I am pretty sure there are plenty of people on this forum who started selling guitars locally, simply because they had built so many that they needed to clear out some of their inventory. A lucky few of them managed to grow it into a full time business.

Back to my first and simplest answer: Take your guitars out to weekend jams, loan them to trusted friends, do whatever you can to show them off. If your instruments are good, and if your prices are right, you will probably sell a few before too long. Use the proceeds to buy wood and tools. Build more. Repeat the sales process. With luck, you will sell more as time goes on.

There you have my view on local marketing and wider marketing. My sincere best wishes whichever way you choose to go.

Patrick
Author:  Trevor Gore [ Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Brand name?
There's all sorts of ways of setting up a business, varies by location and what you want, so no simple answer there.

Regarding websites, look below to see what I did. Just try to register a domain name. You'll find out soon enough if it's not available. But think also how people will search for it. For example, my middle name is Al....It appears nowhere!
Author:  timoM [ Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Brand name?
sdsollod wrote:
Is it necessary to have a legal brand name if you want to start selling guitars?

Absolutely not. I've sold quite a few over the past 3 years, just coupled it into our larger business.

That costs thousands of dollars... I've been told that potential buyers want to see a website to find more information on the builder and to give you more credibility.

Any guitar buyer worth his weight in bacon excrement doesn't give a dang about a website, he's not buying a Martin or a Taylor, he's buying an instrument based on it's sound. He or she has heard it, played it, talked about it, knows someone who owns one, etc. Websites are eyecandy or places to exchange ideas as we are doing in this conversation, intelligent buyers would never use a website as a buying tool of merit. Period.

It looks like just getting a domain name takes some research. I'd like to just call my website sollodguitars.com. I haven't checked yet to see that's available. ...it is my name for heaven's sake... I just typed in sollodguitars.com and it is definitely available, it might cost a few beers a year to own it.

Any thoughts on all this? See above.
Thanks,
Steve


Don't mean to be blunt. Tim
Author:  wbergman [ Fri Apr 11, 2014 4:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Brand name?
I don't know all the rules, but I thought that a copyright of a name was cheap or free. So that protects your name that you apply on the guitar. After that, as the other posts noted, establishing the brand is up to your marketing efforts.
Author:  ChuckB [ Fri Apr 11, 2014 4:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Brand name?
Did my website with yahoo web builder. They will secure the domain name for you and provide tools and tutorial to set up web site for around $100/year. Nice thing is (if you don't mind the learning curve) that you will be able to manipulate your web site yourself. I am by no means a computer geek or even computer savy, so I think anyone can do it. Check out my web site below, not professional, but it is informative.

Chuck
Author:  jshelton [ Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Brand name?
You register your brand name with the state. Where I live it costs $25/year and it's necessary to get a business license. Once you're registered and have a license you will be able to buy wholesale from many vendors which saves much more money than the cost of the registry and license.
Author:  sdsollod [ Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Brand name?
Thanks guys. Good info.

I'm not looking for world domination. I just want to protect myself from potential liability. About the website... I've been building for 10 or 12 years and I'm working on my 10th guitar so I'm not exactly doing mass production. I took a couple of my guitars over to a high end guitar store to get they're opinion. They were favorably impressed and offered to take them on consignment for 20% and start the price at $3,000 each. I was impressed by that since I'm not an established luthier. I told them I'm not quite ready yet. I'm still at the stage that I have hard time letting go after months of building (I work a full-time job and building when I can.). They said that anytime I'm ready they'd be happy to have one in they're shop. I know they don't want junk in they're shop so I felt pretty good... They told me I should have a website for potential buyers to see. Makes sense...
Author:  Michiyuki Kubo [ Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Brand name?
To copyright can get expensive or even more is trademarking. Depends on lawyer fees and filing etc. You do not need a copyright to sell, but a business license is necessary for tax purposes. Further down the road a copyright or trademark will be good to have for instance when someone with the same idea or name comes along and wishes to use it on their product. Then you would need to secure the right for it and in legal cases the entity that has a copyright or trademark gets the "first dibs" so to speak to use the name in anyway they want. Honestly see if there are any other guitar makers with the name and you will have an idea on where you stand with that, otherwise do not worry about it till later and just get a cheap business license for around 20-100 (depends on local authorities) to sell your products officially. Tax ID and etc is extra but you will be able to write off expenses as well which help financially. I have not sold guitars before but have owned businesses now and before. Keep good accounting.
Author:  Nick Royle [ Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Brand name?
Here's one way to get a website... (I'm sure prices won't be much different in $)

Buy the domain name (£10-25 for two years)
Buy hosting (can be as little as £3/month here)
Install WordPress (£0) [Instructions on Wordpress.org - Some hosting services include WordPress.]
Find a WordPress theme you like (£0- £60 one off payment) [Make sure it's "responsive" so it works on phones nicely... Search "Wordpress themes" on Google]
Customise it and add your text and pics (£0)
Submit site to search engines and set up Google Analytics (£0)

Bish bash bosh, you have your own website about as cheap as you can get, and entirely under your control! :D

(As someone else said, though, no internet savvy customer will be particularly impressed with a flashy website. Making a flashy website is easy for someone who knows how and doesn't necessarily mean much. If you want a web presence, and in this day and age, you might as well, you just want to it to look smart and work well enough to display your work in a way you'd like it to be.)
Author:  sdsollod [ Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Brand name?
If you don't try to "write-off" expenses, do you really need a business license or tax ID? What if I'm just making something that I'm willing to let you have for certain amount of money...? Do I need to charge tax? ...or pay income tax? Based on what... value of materials? ,the number of hours I spent on it? Maybe I need to research running a small business... Really, at this point, I'm small time... maybe just looking to make a little extra money, not a substantial income...
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Fri Apr 11, 2014 11:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Brand name?
In NC, you have to charge and pay the sales taxes quarterly, even if it's just a hobby. Plenty of people don't, and some get away with it, but "legally" you can't sell in the state without charging and paying the sales tax, based on the county your sale occurs in. Different counties have different sales taxes. I'd talk to someone who knows the rules in your county. There are a lot of problems that can come up. I set up a business here, but I ran into all kinds of problems setting it up. They want to put you in a manufacturing business, even though it isn't. Issues with whether or not the shop is part of the heated space of the residence. My shop is in an attached carport, but does have heat and air, so they let me do it. If it had been a totally separate building I couldn't have done it. I would have had to lease a commercial shop. Listed me as "Woodcraft for Guitars". If you just do it, and sell for cost, and don't get caught, you might come out fine. The issue is getting caught, and paying the fines and back taxes. Not sure how they do that, but I know folks who have done it for years without getting caught.

There are some lines that are drawn between businesses and hobbies, but not sure what they are. I was a member of a guitar ensemble, and that was a hobby. I wrote off some limited expenses, but we still had to charge taxes on the CD's we sold.
Author:  dzsmith [ Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Brand name?
Might look at setting up a Facebook page. Check out Stuart Keith Gort's FB.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Brand name?
In Virginia I think the cutoff for hobby vs business is $600/year. Not much really at all. I um err know a guy who has been doing it for some time too.

As for copyright, any one can copyright anything for free. It's just a symbol and the year. It protects original works of authorship,” including
literary, dramatic, musical, artistic, and certain other intellectual works. The protection is available to both published and unpublished works. You do not need to register for a copyright. It goes into affect as soon as you write it down. You really don't even need the symbol and year anymore though it's strongly recommended that you do so.

Trade marks are totally different. A trademark protects symbols, slogans or designs which identify the source of the products or services of one party and distinguishing them from other parties. So the Martin logo is a trade mark but the Martin guitar owners manual is copyrighted.
Author:  Michael.N. [ Fri Apr 11, 2014 2:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Brand name?
Hhmmm. Land of the free. . . ain't so free. It costs zilch to set up here (professionally) although by law you have to register with the tax authorities. It's free though and they'll give you plenty of advice on setting up business.
No sales tax, unless your turnover is above £80,000 per year. Then it's 20% on top of the selling price. Many prefer to keep just below the £80,000 threshold. Not Guitar makers though. They never get anywhere close to the threshold anyway.
Business tax is payable on the premises where you conduct your business. For the last 6 years my charge has been £0.00 - probably wasn't worth them collecting the small amount that they did in the previous years. They actually send a bill for £0.00 !!
You have to pay tax on your income though, that includes any earnings - hobbies included. Many choose to ignore it, especially if it's small amounts.
Author:  Michiyuki Kubo [ Fri Apr 11, 2014 4:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Brand name?
Taken from a FAQ on copyright.gov

Can I copyright the name of my band?
No. Names are not protected by copyright law. Some names may be protected under trademark law. Contact the U.S. Patent & Trademark Office, 800-786-9199, for further information.

How do I copyright a name, title, slogan, or logo?
Copyright does not protect names, titles, slogans, or short phrases. In some cases, these things may be protected as trademarks. Contact the U.S. Patent & Trademark Office, 800-786-9199, for further information. However, copyright protection may be available for logo artwork that contains sufficient authorship. In some circumstances, an artistic logo may also be protected as a trademark.

How do I protect my idea?
Copyright does not protect ideas, concepts, systems, or methods of doing something. You may express your ideas in writing or drawings and claim copyright in your description, but be aware that copyright will not protect the idea itself as revealed in your written or artistic work.

These are a list of copyright fees;
http://www.copyright.gov/docs/fees.html

I know some guys are saying it is free to just put a copyright symbol, it sure is free to type that but it doesnt mean anything to the government.

I have had trademarks before, so i have researched this stuff. The taxation thing, if you sell something over a certain amount you should get a tax id. If you sold it once and not again for 5-10 years then you have a case. If you sold one once a year than you will get in trouble by the IRS if they figure it out, reason being is because then you have "Intent" to distribute product routinely. So if it becomes every year, you should get a tax id.
Author:  sdsollod [ Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Brand name?
Okay, it appears that you have to collect sales tax on the guitars you sell (in trust to the government) and give it to them on a periodic basis (quarterly). I assume that you also have to report income for income taxes. How do you decide how much of the selling price is income? Do you subtract the cost of materials? What about the time spent? Do you subtract a reasonable hourly rate to determine how much is profit? What's reasonable, $1.25/hour, $5.00/hour, $25.00/hour? This is getting more complicated... I'm going to have to do more research... All I want to do is make a few guitars and sell them for a reasonable price and make a little "walkin' around" money... Good Grief!
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Fri Apr 11, 2014 8:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Brand name?
Make it simple. If you are going to do it as a hobby, just subtract the cost of the material and parts in the instrument. The labor is yours anyway, so that doesn't count unless you are paying a payroll and set up for that. You will be able to write off some expenses, but it'll be limited to actual costs. I don't think you get to write off tools and such when it's a hobby, but I could be wrong on that. However, all supplies, etc., I think you can. Essentially you are just coming up with a "cost of goods sold" number. The difference is income.
Author:  Michiyuki Kubo [ Sat Apr 12, 2014 3:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Brand name?
Steve,

During the first year, you won't be able to pay quarterly since the first year you do not know a projected sales. You start that on the second year. For example;

Annual income 13000
Quarterly payment 600

With this ratio you would probably end up getting money back when you file.

If you have a business license, depending on the type of license, you keep a record of all sales and all costs. Tools, paper, gas spent to the client etc. You can not deduct your own payroll because you are the only employee. It is less complicated than you think it is. All you do is keep the numbers and receipts. Then at the end of the year file with that. Unless you are making a bunch of money you will come at a loss. Meaning you get more back in taxes and it could work to your advantage. During the second year you should pay on a quarterly voucher and speak to your CPA about how much to put down.

People do sell without all this stuff, depends on the risks.
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